CIA and Waterboarding

"In 1995 President Clinton signed a Presidential Directive that granted the CIA permission to use the extraordinary rendition process. Did anybody here speak out against Clinton detaining terror suspects and flying them to Syria, Egypt, or Morocco to be tortured?"

I complained about a lot of things during the Clinton era. Please cite the names of the torture victims, etc., so we know what case you're speaking of. But odds are good that I did not complain about it at the time. In case you're new around here, I was kicked and banned from this board in 2003 because of how argumentive I was in defense of George W. Bush.

In the matter of going after Osama bin-Forgotten, I supported giving an unusual degree of authority to the president, mistakenly believing that he would use such power responsibly and relinquish it quickly, rather than what we've seen: a fscking monsterous tyrant.

 

In spite of the fact that you seem to like lumping all dissenting opinions into one easily identifiable/condemnable group to avoid overloading that little pea-brain of yours, I'm pretty sure I've already told you that I'm not a republican. And if I didn't before, well then I am now and please kindly note it for the future. I oppose the patriot act, and virtually any/every other expansion of government powers (unlike most who are on the left).

I think the parties system needs to be abolished. It effectively turns the hundreds of members of the legislature's votes into two; "one side vs. the other" as if to say two heads are better than millions. Very rarely do you see people thinking outside of party lines, on EITHER side of the fence.

 

I've already told you that I'm not a republican. And if I didn't before, well then I am now and please kindly note it for the future. I oppose the patriot act, and virtually any/every other expansion of government powers (unlike most who are on the left).


But I'm still really sure you will cast a vote for McCain and torture, and any other Republicans that happen to be on the ballot.

Interesting though, that you object to USA-PATRIOT. A scant few of its provisions were controversial (as they should have been), but 99.9% of it was endorse and supported by every person and organization that examined it, including the ACLU.

 

It's that .1% that can make or break a deal, especially when it infringes on the constitution.

 

So, all you sadistic motherfuckers think torture actually works? Think, again.

Violence only begets more violence.

Did all that killing and torturing effectively eradicate the root cause of the problem? The answer, again is a flat NO.

As one person on one side is tortured/killed, another person just takes his place and the violent cycle only continues.

Some here say, we need to use torture in order to "protect America".

What these stupid Neo-con, assholes should be doing is protecting America against Bush and the morons running this government.

I assume, you Neo-con cocksuckers are aware that bin Laden has ties to the Saudi royal family = Bush.

So, yes, maybe you should simply just hang Bush instead.

 

I find it ironic that we waged war on Iraq, because supposedly Sadaam used torture on his people. Now our administration can justify it's use.

 

Yeah it's the 'but we're the good guys' excuse, which gets nullified the moment you use torture.

 

If a country that claims to be the most benevolent nation in the world uses torture, then don't dare call yourselves benevolent. Do you want to make a statement to the rest of the world, or do you want to take a step backwards and resolve issues like other previously defeated countries that went too far?

This isn't debatable. If you want to TORTURE people, then go ahead, just don't call yourself a superior nation with a superior culture, because a truly superior culture wouldn't use such inferior tactics. Want to make a stand for the rest of the world? Then do what you think is right, not what we think will 'protect us'. Because I'll tell you right now, torturing, occupying nations, and hate mongering isn't going to PROTECT US. Not only are we LESS SAFE we are LESS FREE as a result of all this.

Here is a comment that I think doesn't make sense:
"Terrorists are taking away our freedom! So to safeguard our freedoms, we should then DECREASE the number of civil liberties that this country has relied on for stability since it's foundation hundreds of years ago!"

Is that really logical? Honestly, I'm not being a dick here. Are you guys alive? Don't you understand what the fuck is going on here... ?

sigh.

 

How can torture be useful?


Torture is violence. Like a seed, it can only bear violent fruit.

If the root cause of the problem was inequity, injustice, and all forms of violence, including violence of the mind, then torture is not the answer.

Torture will only engender more violence.

Someone said, "stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting something different." Torture is the same, it will only perpetuate the cycle of violence.

 

Benjamin Franklin said that, pretty sure - Good quote.

See, Stev... people look at us an call us crazy hippies, and think that we support terrorism because we don't want war. But war on terrorism just doesn't make any sense... go ahead and take down some extremist groups, but I don't see how you are going to wipe out terrorism from the face of the earth anytime soon. Terrorism is based on small groups of people that share the same crazy ideals... It isn't based on race, culture, and definitely not a nation full of people.

TERRORISM is only fueled when you occupy other nations. Terrorists are scum, but they are still HUMAN BEINGS that are behaving very humanely to very real human affairs. If you don't give them a reason to attack, they will get less people to support them. Sure terrorism will always be here, but you only add fuel to the fire by doing what we are doing. There is NO us VERSUS THEM. Who is THEM? Deal with terrorism as we always have. There is no such thing as a war on terrorism. War on terrorism is like having a war against human nature... good luck with that one.

Why is this so hard to understand? I know the TV and others condition each other to believe against rational arguments, but there is a time when you have to stand still for a moment, and think. Think about what is REALLY happening. Listen to your own brain and heart, because no one is going to do it for you. Snap out of irrational thought processes, and learn to take back control over your own brain; and realize what is happening around us all.

 

Reposted from another thread:



Part of the problem is the blind support by stupid flag waving, pseudo-patriots who blindly buy into the Bush/Cheney, Exxon-Haliburton, Republicunt, right-wing, Conservative Christian, Neo-**** bullshit.


This reminds me of the preface to a book by Noam Chomsky, entitled, Pirates & Emperors. It points to the hypocrisy of our current "war on terror" policy.

St. Augustine tells the story of a pirate captured by Alexander the Great "How dare you molest the sea?" asked Alexander.

"How dare you molest the world?", the pirate replied.

"Because I do with a little ship only, I am called a thief; you, doing it with a great navy are called an emperor."

 

I think it's important not to call people dumb, anymore. It just further alienates people from arriving at the same goal and truth. We divide and conquer ourselves by doing this. If I seem frustrated at times, then that's because I am. If I sound patronizing, then that's just due to my frustration and I apologize.

But it's important to recognize what we all truly want, and that is contentment; and contentment isn't arrived at by doing what we are currently doing. That has to be understood, and that can only be understood through honesty and by displaying class whenever discussing your ideas with others.

 

I know it's borderline impossible for you to comprehend this, since McCain's a *gasp* REPUBLICAN and all...but John McCain has been extremely outspoken in condemning torture as well as the current administration's use of it.

Not to say that no one else is, but he's the only candidate that I've heard specifically condemn torture.


But I guess when he became affiliated with the *gasp* republicans he had "I HEART TORTURE" scarificated into his flesh.

 

I swear the whole point of this thread was that he hadn't condemned torture :S

 

But I'm still really sure you will cast a vote for McCain and torture, and any other Republicans that happen to be on the ballot.

"Torture" is a silly straw man argument, affecting 6 people. Thousnds of stoners are busted and abused each year for marijuana violations. What about Americans held in prisons?
What about an issue that affects real people, not a cartoon!

All of the oxygen consumed by "Torture" should be used to fight for real freedoms real reforms, real people.

 

It's possible to campaign for more than one thing. There are quite a lot more than 6 people who have been extraordinarily renditioned anyway. Just 'cause someones foreign, doesn't mean their basic human rights shouldn't be protected too.

 

Well I hadn't read the beginning post till just now. I don't want to play this old card, but my bet is that the quote is out of context.

What he's saying is that although he doesn't support the use of torture (he's said this time and time again), he doesn't support charging the administration for war crimes.

Jay Leno asked him "Why are we (as a nation) still using waterboarding?"

It's not that surprising that he is maintaining his loyalty to the president...he's a military man. The question was pointed in such a way as to come up with a rationalization for why it was still being used to some degree, so he did.

 

So his argument makes torture right? I don't think you can rationalize something like this.

I really don't trust presidential candidate that can't be upfront with his beliefs. No need to pussy foot around the question.

 

Dude...no.


HE DOESN'T SUPPORT TORTURE.

There, clear enough?

 

John McCain has been extremely outspoken in condemning torture as well as the current administration's use of it.

He says he was against torture before he voted against a ban on it:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=110&session=2&vote=00022

I'm watching Frontline right now. I had no idea just how closely the White House worked with those actually conducting the torture. They showed Rumsfeld's own hand-written order ordering the torture sessions to be lengthened. Nice guys, these Republicans.