Christianity, really?

And idolatry, we worship things that can't listen or talk

 

God was trying to protect Adam and Eve from being confused by the serpent again. Making the serpent low and putting enmity between them was for this purpose.

He said that they would certainly die, but they didn't right away. So the serpent was right that they didn't die imediately, but God was right that they would eventually die.

Please explain more.

He provides the antidote to lead us back to paradise and the tree of life.

Explain more.

Why does God say after Adam and Eve ate the fruit that they have knowledge of good and evil and have become like one of us?

 

Silliness

 

I have a question about the tree just being a normal tree,

Why was it only after they ate from it that they relized they were naked?

 

I agree that God humbled the serpent by making him low, but why was that necessary? What was God protecting them from other than a lie?

Who was lying, God or the serpent? Is it possible for God to lie?

True, they did not die right away but they did certainly die.

God told them that by eating the fruit they would die. To me, God seems to be saying that they'll lose their immortality by eating of the fruit - Severing their bond and understanding of God.

Satan accused God of holding out on his creation and many Angels followed Satan's teaching, eventually leading them to the abyss.

Maybe God was referring to that incident as knowing Good and Evil.

God provides the antidote, but what are we being cured from an why would he put cherubs to Guard the tree?

There is man's idea of right and wrong and there are God's idea of right and wrong. Man's idea of right and wrong is flimsy and following something other than God's idea of it is a lie and since it's a lie it can cause calamity. For example, it seemed like a righteous act to go to the Iraq War but it caused calamity and many would argue it was one of the events that lead to the decline in American economy.

Honestly, I'm at a loss at this, why do you believe this was the reason?

 

My interpretation of it atm is that the Tree represented Man's trust in God. When the serpent moved us to break that trust, then we gained the understandings of the serpent. In other words, Satan accused God of holding out on his creation and by doing so disconnecting himself from trust, love, and everything associated with God. When Adam and Eve indulged themselves in the lie, they gained the philosophy of Satan.

To God, they were not naked (because they were given everything they ever needed), but to the serpent they were. Because Satan saw reality that God gave to his creation as less than perfect, so they covered up what God had given them because they were ashamed of God's gift. In other words, they also began to feel that God was holding out on them (clothing). They began to want more than was given to them even though what was given to them was everything they could ever need and want. So then Cain was born, which means possession.

I'd imagine that a similar event occurred in Heaven.

 

Before they ate the fruit all they knew was life and it was good. God made everything and it was "very good", but Adam didn't know this. Then after he ate his eyes were opened to what was good which was everthing and evil which didn't exist. Then he began to make false judgements about the good things God created. For example he saw his body and thought it as naked so he covered it even though nothing was wrong with it. It was a cataclysmic change in perception.

 

Eve's eyes were opened and then she gave the fruit to Adam and his eyes were also open. Are you saying that eating the fruit that they then realized how good they had it? If so, then why did they cover themselves? It was only after all this are they moved away from the Garden because their perception was corrupted.

Maybe they never needed to know Good and Evil because only God should be in charge of this. God told them what was Good and Evil all they needed to do was trust him.

 

They were both telling the truth. They didn't die and became like God so the serpent was telling the truth. God was also telling the truth because he could see that they would eventually die in the future. Remeber, all God created was very good. He kept evil out of his creation.

I still think that the tree of knowledge of good and evil had a purpose. Why would he create a tree, name it and put it in our reach if it had no purpose. He created us to be like him and think like him, but Adam and Eve weren't ready for it.

Where in the Bible does it talk about this?

Jesus provides the way to overcome the selfcentered way of seeing things which leads to hate, strife, anxiety, fear, disease and death. This can be seen in the garden of gethsemane when he says "not my will but your will be done" which is the absolute opposite of Adam's way of thinking.

He guarded the tree of life so the suffering a death caused by this way of thinking would be temporal and wouldn't last forever.

Agree. I think a lot of man's way of thinking is based of fear the opposite of love.

 

Did they really become like God though? By the context it seems the opposite happened.

Can the serpent ever tell the truth? The Bible says that in him there is no truth.

If all is good then why is there war? Could that part be referring to something else?

So I render that as everything God created is good but everything Satan creates is bad because it goes against everything God ever created.

I believe it had a purpose too but not for the same reason that you believe. To me, the purpose is to express the value of trust.

There are two very distinctive views on this and each one changes the theology around quite a bit, but the overall value of God's plan remains the same.

I found an article that points to what I mean: http://www.apocalipsis.org/t12-war-heaven.htm

I agree with this. At least Eve admitted her fault, Adam projected his fault onto Eve which was really blaming God.

Hmm, not so sure about this.

True, fear is the opposite of love. Adam and Eve began to fear God so they hid from him.

 

When they ate the fruit they saw all that was which was good and also what wasn't. So they looked at their body which was good and perfect and saw it as what it was not. It was not clothed.

Perhaps we never needed know, but why would the tree be in the garden? Also, only after they ate of the tree were their eyes opened to the knowlege of good and evil. I don't think that the tree was simply a test. I think the tree was a real danger to us that God wanted to protect us from. If it was simply a test it would make God fickle and selfish.

 

Maybe the passage is not meant to be read from a such a literal viewpoint. I think that it makes more sense and is more beneficial to us if we rather search for and focus on the truth behind the passage. We may disagree on what exactly the truth is.

Not sure if this view has been discussed but I'll throw it out there. In one view, "the tree of the knowledge of good and evil" represents what the bible calls "works". Two of the epistles, Romans(it may be for a reason that Romans is first) and Galatians focus on works versus faith(trust). In actuality, it is a big focus in much of the NT. Man and woman who walked with God since they were created(and were not gulty in conscience) partook, became guilty in conscience before God, and hid themselves in shame from God. The clothes God provided represent the gift of imputed righteousness(Romans and Galatians) of the Saviour. I was raised in a works religion - I eventually became guilty in conscience before God and hid myself in shame from from God. Then God revealed His Love for me which was not based on my works but on WHO HE IS and WHAT HE DID FOR ME. As John said, "We love Him because HE First LOVED US". I learned that God loved me and then fell in love with Him in return. Now I attempt to reflect His love that He has for me(and for everyone else). Why not focus more on what's really important and less on the outward shell in which the truth is contained?

 

I've often wondered if the bible should really be taken as litteral, the story of job for instance. There is no way the auther of job could have known about god's little talks with the devil. And really? Satan goes up to visit god and mocks god until god finally says, "job is a good servent, go ahead, kill his family, burn down his house and give him boils."

If this really happened god seems like kind of a ass, but if it figurative, it teaches us to have faith because god has a plan.

But where does it stop? You could take the whole bible as figurative and it would make just as much sense.

 

Hit the nail on the head...

Even if one takes a literal view, they may learn the truth underneath - the truth is what really matters in the end.

And you are correct - the book of Job is meant to teach us to have faith(trust) because God has a plan. "All things work for good to those that love God"(Romans), and one can't fully love God without first trusting(having faith in Him).

 

This is totaly off topic again, but I've been meaning to ask it.

So, as I understand it, there are two main ideas of how we are "saved" (there are probably others, feel free to bring them up)

There is the "once saved always saved" idea, I never thought it made any sense that saying one stupid prayer (a prayer that is never mentioned in the bible) is the way to god.

The other one is for the most part used by Catholics I think, and that is confession (as in a connfesional) I myself have never been to more than 2 or 3 masses, and don't know much about catholisism, so I could have the wrong idea. But I was talking to a catholic a few weeks ago, and she told me that there are very few people in heaven because in order to get there you need to be sinnless. The only way to be sinnless is to not sin from the time you were in the confesional till the time you die. I don't know if this is stated somewhere in the apocripha, but It isn't in my bible, and it makes uterly no sense. While I think god is more than a 10 second prayer, it seems stupid that he would be so concerned with all of the technicalities.

So I guess my question is, what do you believe on the subject, and is there any scriptual evedence to support it?

 

Knowledge yes. The dynamic I see here is first shame followed by an effort to compensate.

This materialism extends into the course of human relations. The money changers sit at the doorway to Gods' temple of the human heart as we "evaluate" the character of our brothers and ourselves.

We need to make distinctions in life. In order to make accurate assessments we need a reliable and standard measure. Judgment is not such a device, it is always an arbitrary measure. The worlds idea of good judgment is on the basis of right or wrong, good or evil. The idea of relative worth.
Do not judge by appearances buy rather use right judgment.
Is it true or is it false.
What is it for.
Is it the same or is it different.
When we look to this world seeking the good or the bad, we are in effect laying up for ourselves treasures in this world.

 

Satan will do whatever he will do regardless, but good knew Job and had faith in him that Job would come out of the sufferings that Satan had caused him.

Job would not have known about the conversation that God had with Satan, but God would.

I don't see God as an asshole because in Jonah God sends down heat on Jonah's head and asks him if he has a right to complain. I interpreted this as him not having a right to complain; the prophets don't seem to care what God sends in their direction because it is again an extension of trusting God. We can either believe that God is doing this for the giggles or he is doing this to teach us something profound.

We can see the Bible as non-literal, but imo if we do that then that's like saying God lies and it disconnects us from a truth that can only be revealed if we take it as actual events. For instance, when Jesus performs his miracles they elude to spirituality and God's plan; The miracle leads to the message like 'Jesus Calms the storm', it's both figurative and literal; Jesus calmed the storm which is what he'll do for us spiritually if we have faith in him and what he'll do when he returns. So to say that these events were merely figurative is to deny God's ability to work through his son and his prophets.

To add to the Job story, to me it is to show an accurate portrayal of what happens to someone if they lose everything in their life. One of the things that occurs is that your true friends are revealed in a time of crisis because the Bible goes into how the poor and needy are the refuges of the world and are ignored in times of trouble but are enjoyed when they have a lot to offer. Job also came to understand that life is more than the gainings of the wicked man and that is a relationship with God; that the wicked may have the greatest homes and be jolly but they'll always lack God which makes their lives in the dark...

While his friends were trying to cheer him up, they did so not under the inspiration of God and only said what they said to try to end his discomfort (and their own), but later on they do talk under the inspiration of God and both parties come to a greater understanding of the profound nature of God.

God will be whatever he needs to be to bring us back to what we once had and sometimes he can look like an ass, but as long as we have trust in him, then we guard ourselves from Adam and Eves characteristics of inappropriately fearing God because then we would understand that everything that God does is to help us, not hurt us...

It's like in lord of the rings when Gandalf asks Bilbo for the ring but when he doesn't give it to him Gandalf brings about darkness, grows tall, and speaks with a brutal voice. Later Gandalf says, "I'm not trying to hurt you... I'm trying to help you..." To Gandalf Bilbo is like a child (height differentials), and when we believe God has become the scary Gandalf, he really is only doing that to be helpful, not to cause us harm.

To me the Bible talks about real events and God promise to reveal these events as a testimony to future generations... Job and Jonah will be rewarded for the faith they had in God so I don't worry about them, and reading their stories reveal to me that they didn't see God as an asshole. So if they didn't care, I'm not sure why we should.

 

It says that after they were tempted to eat the fruit so I see this as a delusion on the part of Adam and Eve. So although they saw it as good in their eyes, they only did so because they were being inspired by each others temptation to severe themselves from God by becoming a god themselves.

Everything that Satan says is a flat out lie. So when he said that your eyes would be opened, that was also a lie. When he said that your eyes would be opened, it suggested that God was keeping something away from his creation which is merely a rehash of Satan's accusation that God was holding out... God is saying that he isn't holding out while Satan is.

Perhaps we needed to know, but wouldn't that suggest predestination? That salvation is predestined by God and that Satan is in a way in on God's plan and is only an instrument for that plan? To me that would make God very strange.

Their eyes were opened to a false sense of Good and Evil or a true sense of it. If it was a true sense of Good and Evil then man has no idea what to do with it and would misuse such knowledge.

To me, it seems that they merely carried over the understanding of Satan into themselves when they chose to distrust God just as Satan distrusted God. That very act says, "I don't trust in you God. I know better than you do when it comes to good and evil."

The only real danger was temptation, but if we kept trusting in God then nothing bad would happen to us just like the same idea can be applied to our daily lives. We can be tempted to do wrong, but if we trust in God then we can stray away from it then gain a deeper understanding and trust for God.

Remember though, God's ways are not our ways. So when God owned that tree, it was for a different reason than why we would own something, so I don't see it as fickle and selfish simply because it was God's one and only request and that request seemed to imply a marriage between God and Man.

If A&E defeated Satan's temptation, which I believe that had the ability to do, and had children, they would impart their trust of God into their children and it could have ended then and there. But A&E instilled their distrust of God onto the rest of the world.

 

Two Questions you might ask are;

Since the word saved is a verb and not a noun, what are we to be saved from?

And what do the scriptures mean when they say; . . .he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved. . . (Matthew 10:22; Matthew 24:13; Mark 13:13)

 

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast (Eph 2:8)

Just thought I'd throw this in to balance out the salvation issue.