Christian sects having belief in reincarnation

This is awkward. The OP has asked us not to continue our discussion on matters not pertinent to Christian sects having belief in reincarnation. The best sources on the subject I know of are anthologies by Head and Cranston: Reincarnation: An East-West Anthology (1961) revised as Reincarnation in World Thought: A Living Study of Reincarnation in All Ages (1967). Some of the Gnostics, including followers of Valentinus and Basilides of Alexandria in the second century, believed in reincarnation, but their works were banned. (probably because they were Gnostics). In the third centruy, Origen, a prominent non-Gnostic Christian theologian and apologist, entertained such beliefs, but he he was later judged a heretic for his views on other matters. After the Second Council of Constantinople in 533 A.D. belief in reincarnation was considered to be heretical, because it seemed to conflict with bodily resurrection. The Bogomils of the late tenth century and the Cathars, neo-Gnostics of the 12th-14th centuries, reintroduced the doctrine in the context of a neo-Gnostic revival. As mentioned, the Cathars (AKA Albigensians) were brutally suppressed--not specifically because of re-incarnation but because of the challenge they presented to Orhodox Christian doctrine and papal authority.

But if you want to talk about Jesus, Mary Magdalene, and trips to Scotland and India, I created and alternate thread entitled Myths about the life of Jesus the Nazarene.

Ah, thank you. One reason why I may be having trouble with the discussions on this thread is that I regard the Theosophical Society and its members as questionable sources--to put it mildly.
Theosophy: Cult of the Occult
Amazon.com
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/the-unmasking-of-the-19th-centurys-seance-queen

 

'The Order of The Cross' is a Christian sect having belief in reincarnation. It was founded by John Todd Ferrier in 1904. He was also a proponent of vegetarianism.

John Todd Ferrier - Wikipedia

The Order Of The Cross, a Vegan/Vegetarian and Pacifist Fellowship following a Spiritual path of Mysticism with a reinterpretation of Christianity, the Jesus and the Christ Life and Reincarnation

 

Yes. Ferrier, a Congregational minister, was heavily influenced by theosophy, and his esoteric version of Christianity incorporates theosophical ideas, which, in turn, were influenced by Hindu and Gnostic thought. The international group is mainly confined to the U.S. and English-speaking countries. Its best known for its vegetarianism and concern for the welfare of animals. Belief that they will be reincarnated as one of those animals could certainly contribute to that!

 

Theosophy has a large following around the world,especially in europe, and I have found its adherents to be cultured, respectable and intellectual people.

It perhaps may have not made much of an impact in the US, but this does not need to be a reason to belittle it.

The theosophists have not engaged in crusades or inquisitions or religious wars like the Catholics and Protestants, and their interpretation of Christianity is also valid.

Also , as I have shown through the cases studies of early Christian sects like the Cathars and Bologmils which became extinct due to persecution, it is not just the western theosophists which had belief in reincarnation.

 

In an attempt to return to the subject at hand, I suggest that reincarnation is full of questionable facts. Homo sapiens has been on the planet for at least 75,000 years. If every person who has lived on this planet has sought to be reincarnated, the numbers of humans on the planet would be unfathomable. The number of participating humans would have to be scaled down to make room to breathe. Criteria ?, Who Decides ?, Gender issues ?, Ethnic Issues ?, If the Druids believed that humans are reincarnated as trees, there needs to be room for trees to grow and thrive. The Hindus believe that humans are reincarnating from lower forms of life ultimately becoming Bovines at the top of the Pyramid. I prefer the concept that human souls make their way to heaven, and after character assessment join the other souls there. I really want to meet my grandfather who died 12 years before my birth. I say "Forget it".

 

As someone who has problems with the concept of souls and an afterlife, I find these discussions baffling. I don't expect to go anywhere after death except the crematorium. And I hope I won't be aware of it !

 

I am actually interested in what the theological doctrine of the old Christian sects having belief in reincarnation like the Cathars and Bologmils have to say in this regard. Perhaps they may have some interesting insights but unfortunately they are nowhere to be found.

 

There are some Trump supporters who believe the world is flat. I would suggest reaching out to Evangelical Christians.

 

This thread is not related to the earth's flatness as believed by evangelical christians but that of reincarnation as a belief in early christian sects.

Science has determined that the world is not flat. Even the Surya Siddhanta, a Sanskrit treatise dating back to the fourth century A.D. , has stated that the earth is spherical in shape.

Surya Siddhanta - Wikipedia.

In western psychiatry and psychology as well, the likes of Dr. Brian Weiss, Dr. Michael Newton , Dr. Ian stevenson ,Dr. Jim Tucker and others has compiled a body of research work substantiating reincarnation and showing that it may have a basis in fact.

 

I have found lots of adherents to traditional Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Mormonism, Christian Scientism atheism, agnosticism, animism, etc., to be cultured, respectable, and intellectual people. But i think there's plenty of evidence that all of us are governed by non-rational unconscious needs that can have a profound influence on our beliefs and behaviors. Many of us hold beliefs based on faith that can't be empirically verified. Some of these seem even to defy the findings of science: e.g., six-day creation, young earth, etc. I think Mormons are generally fine people, but I wouldn't cite a Mormon source to establish Jesus' visits to the Americas.

The Theosphical Society was co-founded in New York City 1875 by Henry Steel Olcott, a western convert to Buddhism, and Madam Helena Blatavsky a Russian born spiritualist, who was the principal source of the Society's esoteric doctrines. She raised eyebrows by using "stage-managed seances to 'prove' her claims to supernatural powers.Theosophy: Cult of the Occult Her main sources were: "1) revelations from a secret inner circle of Eastern arahats (“masters of esoteric philosophy”), with whom she may have communicated by telepathy, and 2) “secret portions of the Book of Dzyan,” a work so highly classified that only Madame Blavatsky ever heard of it. Also included in her Secret Doctrine is an ancient Greek incantation-“Aski -ka-taski -haix -tetrax -damname neus-aision”—supposedly powerful enough to cleanse a person possessed by devils."Theosophy: Cult of the Occult The Society's doctrines include an ecclectic mix of Gnostic and neoplatonic ideas combined with Hindu and Buddhist beliefs.After Blatavsky's death, the movement was beset by internal conflicts, leading to a split between two main factions: the International Theosophical Society Adyar, based in India; and the Theosophical Society in America based in Wheaton, Ill.

Theosophy is a useful experiment in integrating esoteric traditions from East and West, and has had a powerful influence on the New Age Movement. I'm sure many hippies on this forum won't find it as questionable as I do. As a rationalist and an empiricist at heart, I'm skeptical.

 

I think that reincarnation is just a carrot on a stick. If you live a Christian life, follow the 10 commandments, and read the Bible, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. I feel that we need to make the best of our valuable time while we are alive.

 

If you are a rationalist and empiricist at heart, how can you find modern Christianity coherent !

Also Jesus talks about showing the other cheek and loving the neighbor and enemy, but you do not see much application of his teachings by Christians or Christian nations, mainly because, as a Christian friend once told me, they are' impractical'. But I would say the impracticality is because they are not able to penetrate the surface layer of his teachings into the actual abstract principles he meant, such as that of nondual perception imho.

Even though Jesus had said that the kingdom of God or heaven is within ( similar to the Self or Buddha nature in eastern philosophy), I have seen Christians frightened by the prospects of 'eternal hell', being sinners due to 'original sin' and so on which are contradictory and incompatible. This can also result in fear and psychological suffering which is spiritually unproductive and regressive.

Theosophy was a movement created by westerners to make orderly meaning out of all the conflicting and contradictory scriptural statements, and to have a more coherent understanding of spirituality. Along with Colonel Henry Steel Olcot, Helena Blatavsky was a co-founder of Theosophy, and was more of an organizer and leader, rather than a scholar . The theosophical movement had evolved later on under other outstanding leaders like Annie Besant and Rudolf Steiner. They were also important in creating bridges between eastern and western religious thought, which set an example to other interfaith leaders like Thomas Merton and
Thích Nhat Hanh.

I had recorded my experience with Christianity in this post of mine.

 

It depends on what you mean by "modern Chistianity." I'm a so-called "progressive" one, in the tradition of Borg and Spong. To me, Christianity is about following the teachings and example of Jesus, as related in the gospels: love of God and neighbor, and doing unto others as you would have others do unto you. These are I think they're self-evidently true (although I wouldn't say the same about the gospels in general). I realize that these principles are not exclusive to Christianity. In fact, I think they're rooted in the empathy and reciprocal altruism that are found in other animal species and refined by the cultural evolution of humanity. I think Christianity, like other religions, is cluttered with irrational doctrines. I remember once in church, when the Apostle's Creed was being recited, whispering to my wife: "I don't believe any of this stuff." She whispered back: "It's just words". I think there's substantial evidence that Jesus existed, but I'm skeptical of the miracle claims. I favor the positions of Hume and Carl Sagan that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

I also think that all of the major world religions contain important truths. I came to Christianity by a conversion experience in which a passage in Genesis 1:27 (humans created in God's image and likeness) triggered a cascade of thoughts including contributions from a number of other religions. I reject the exclusivity and intolerance which aided Christianity in its ascent to the world's largest religion but is incompatible with the essence of Jesus' teachings. I take an historical metaphorical approach to the Bible--interpreting heaven and hell as metaphors. In the (non-canonical) Gospel of Thomas, Jesus tells us that "the kingdom of the father is spread out everywhere upon the earth, and people do not see it". (Saying 113) The potential is there if we accept and follow the simple principles of love of God and neighbor, including society's rejects and least fortunate. Hell is the rejection of those principles, leading to the "war of all against all". (Hobbes) I fear that in my country we're currently hovering on the brink, and people espousing militant Christianity are leading the charge. Unfortunately, Christianity, like other world religions, bears the scars of its history. Christianity and Islam rose to become, respectively, the world's first and second largest religions by developing militant positions at variance with the moral core of their teachings. Evolution is such a messy process!

Yes, I recognize the value of drawing on the insights of other religions, past and present. My problem with Theosophy is it's uncritical acceptance of the irrational, opening the door to superstition.

 

Have you known of any western theosophists tormented by ideas of fear of eternal hellfire, Satan, original sin making us all sinners, and having psychological issues in this regard !

I know of a Christian lady who had to be admitted to a mental hospital due to excessive fear of the devil, but I have not known of any Theosophists till date who are having similar issues.

If theosophy has a critical acceptance of the irrational, opening the door to superstition, it would be in contradiction to its theological doctrine that asserts that there is no religion higher than truth, and rationality being a means to attain the same.

Theosophy by Annie Besant

 

Yes, religion can be a mind-crippling disease. "Christianity" comes in many shapes and sizes, some of which are toxic. I recall a post on HF several years ago
from a young man who thought Satan must have created him since he was gay and God didn't make mistakes. I said to myself:"Where is Richard Dawkins when you really need him?" But

It wouldn't be the first time a group did something in contradiction to its theological doctrine. from what I've read by Theosophists, including Annie Besant, critical rationality isn't its strong suit. From what I've read by Theosophists, including Annie Besant, critical rationality isn't its strong suit. In Occult Chemistry (1908), Besant describes her clairvoyant visions of the anatomical structure of elements (along with CW Leadbetter), which she said she achieved in an altered state of conscious that enabled her to slow down of the movement of particles so that she could observe atoms in their natural state. (I find that hard to believe). Researchers from the Society of Psychic Research said that if she had such experiences, her tendency to take them at "their most superficial face value" with utter disregard of any rules of evidence or canons of criticism" limited their scientific value.
Occult Chemistry, a series of Clairvoyant Observations on the Chemical Elements (1909)
OccultAtoms
W.H.Salter (1934), Journal of the Society for Psychical Research 28: p..291.
Annie Besant and Charles Leadbeater’s *Occult Chemistry* (1908)
See also, The Fraud in Adyar Esoteric School
Of course, she was a believer in reincarnation. Theosophy : Reincarnation by Annie Besant : :

 

There are people with psychic abilities and both Besant and Charles Leadbeater is said to have possessed such. She may have described her visions,which she has every right to, but did not ever establish them as part of a doctrine to be rigidly believed and such.

If she had described her visions in medieval Christian europe, she would have been branded as a witch with the extreme penalties that go with it.

 

Maybe so.

emphasis on "said"

She had every right to do so, and I have every right to be skeptical. I think there's insufficient evidence of psychic powers, especially psychokenetic ones sufficient to slow atoms so they could be studied.
Are Psychic Abilities Real? Exploring the Science of Superpowers.
The science of why so many people believe in psychic powers
Should You Believe in Psychics?
Who Has Psychic Powers?
Laboratory Test Shows Psychics Aren’t Psychic (But Here’s How You Can Pretend To Be) | Smithsonian
Why do so many people believe in psychic powers? | BPS
Paranormal beliefs and cognitive function: A systematic review and assessment of study quality across four decades of research
One quarter of Americans believe in them, but one-quarter of the Americans believe the sun revolves around the earth. The ESP research by J.B. Rhine at Duke University, satirized in the Ghost Busters movies, has been thoroughly discredited. The most recent scholarly study offering evidence that telepathy and pre-cognition might be genuine is by Dr. Daryl Bem of Cornell University (2011) “Feeling the Future: Experimental Evidence for Anomalous Retroactive Influences on Cognition and Affect,” Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, Vol. 100, No. 3, 407– 425; The study has been subjected to strong criticism for faulty research practices and calls for it to be withdrawn. Why the Journal of Personality and Social Psychology Should Retract Article DOI: 10.1037/a0021524 “Feeling the Future: Experimental evidence for anomalous retroactive influences on cognition and affect” by Daryl J. Bem https://web.stanford.edu/class/psych201s/psych201s/papers/Wagenmakers-etal-2011-bemComment.pdf Journal rejects studies contradicting precognition, J. N., & Morey, R. D. (2011). A Bayes factor meta-analysis of Bem’s ESP claim.225 Psychonomic Bulletin & Review, 18(4), 682–689. The kind of telekenetic power Besant was claiming would, in my opinion, require far more evidence than she provided to be credible.

Quite possibly. Another example of the propensity of humans to be carried away by irrational beliefs.

 

The bible claims Jesus with having such miraculous abilities, however there is no way to prove their credibility.

Most theosophical works do not deal with psychic abilities. There has been theosophists like Besant, Leadbeater, Geoffrey Hodson with alleged psychic abilities but I found their intellectual content to be more interesting.

I personally don't deny psychic abilities, having read about , heard as well as directly witnessing the same in yogis, sufis, saints and sages. I was however skeptical about them earlier.

The ancient Patanjali Yoga Sutras give a description of psychic abilities that come up with spiritual practices such as meditation. There has been Hindu, Buddhist, Jain and Sufi mystics who have displayed such abilities and there is considerable literature on them, and one can even still witness such stuff.

It is important, imho, to have a proper understanding of such so as not to misinterpret it as per one's conditioning leading to grave errors of judgement.

It is said that the large number of women in medieval europe who were murdered after being branded as witches were actually spiritually evolved people with psychic abilities that came naturally to them such as healing, clairvoyance, extrasensory perception and so on. Their abilities were falsely interpreted as being given to them by the Devil by religious authorities leading to their unfortunate demise.

So while it is right to be skeptical about such abilities, it is also important to do one's due diligence in researching the possible causes of such abilities.

 

That's right! So I tend yo take them with a grain of salt. The experience of conscious life on this beautiful planet and the self-evident truth of Jesus' message and example are sufficient miracles to make me a believer.

So while it is right to be skeptical about such abilities, it is also important to do one's due diligence in researching the possible causes of such abilities.[/QUOTE]Due diligence is also needed in evaluating psychic claims. Rationalist movements in India seem to be making headway in that regard..
Disenchanting India: Organized Rationalism and Criticism of Religion in India
Organized Rationalism in 20th-Century India

 

Spiritism or Kardecism is a relatively new religious movement founded by writer and educator Hippolyte Léon Denizard Rivail (a.k.a. Allan Kardec) with belief in reincarnation. Kardec considered his doctrine to derive from a Christian perspective.

Kardecist spiritism - Wikipedia

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO SPIRITISM > CHAPTER 4 - EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN AGAIN HE CANNOT SEE THE KINGDOM OF GOD > RESURRECTION AND REINCARNATION