"Cardboard kills" - does heavy LSD use result in loss of intelligence?

Unfortunatly until the laws change to allow research on LSD to continue we won't know with a medical certainty. No real research has been done in about forty years, and LSD has only been around for 70 years. It hadn't been around long enough for any conclusive results regarding heavy or long term use to really be compiled. All things thus far indicate that LSD is physiologically benign, but that isn't considering the person who has dosed multiple hundreds of times or those who have done one or more "thumbprint" type doses.
My acid taking heyday was in the '70's and I don't really know how many times I've taken it, though I'm sure it's well over 200 doses over about a 5 year period and then probably only a dozen times since about '79. I now prefer it only every year or so just to kind of blow out the pipes so to speak. I seem to have come through unscathed. Weed has been more detrimental than LSD ever was.
So support MAPS and other groups trying to get research underway again.

 

Out of all the people 50 years old + I know who have done LSD, the ones who we're all about it and used it like I have are the most intelligent, satisfied, and self productive people I know, period. This leads me to believe that there are no negative effects, only negative people.
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Another examp, I ran into a kid I havent really seen in a long time, used to sell acid when we were in highschool. He's a year or two younger than I, and we got to talking about psychedelics and I brought up our forums here and mentioned how so many people come on about flashbacks and mental problems etc., and he just shook his head. Turns out he's another of the 300+ club as well, and makes more money than anyone our age I know and lives the most 'normal', self composed lifestyle. The kid was building computers when he was 8 lol, so I guess hes a pretty hard head to crack either way.

 

I know people who took 100's of hits all the time, like every weekend and they are fine.

I have never noticed any negative effect myself, even after taking 38 hits at once. That was a deep trip though let me tell you lol

People always say there are people who dont come back but I have never really met one, the only girl I ever met who had a bad reaction to acid was schitophrentic, with alot of other shit wrong to begin with.

 

timothy leary dosed over 600-1000 times in his life and he was pretty fucking smart

 

I'm not at all saying that all of you guys are mistaken or that you fall into the following category, but one thing that has to be considered is that it's a lot more difficult for users of LSD (or people who do any activity), especially frequent users, to notice the negative effects LSD is having on others or themselves. For one thing, change occurs over time, so it's not always obvious even to the person who has experienced negative effects. Also, people who do a lot of LSD are probably pretty comfortable amongst those in the LSD culture, so they are used to tripped out people, and what seems normal to them might seem really whack to someone else (but, like I said, I'm mostly interested in effects on intelligence here). And, of course, if LSD does fuck up the brain in some cases, constant trippers could be too fucked up to notice how fucked up the other regular trippers are.

Also, a lot of you (but not all of you) seem to keep discussing issues that aren't what I was asking about, no matter how many times I try to redirect the conversation. People who dose a lot tend to believe in "weird things" and live alternative lifestyles, of course, but often those people were somewhat into that to begin with... of course LSD changes lifestyles, and certainly people have been effected positively and negatively in this way. For the record, people really do never come back, or at least don't come back for quite a while, and usually it's hard to be completely "back" once you've lost it for a while because the person's confidence is completely shattered... just read some of the threads on this forum for proof. A lot of people have serious identity crises after doing L, and you can put a positive spin on it, and sometimes the person ends up stronger in the long run, but sometimes not. Sometimes people lose their way for quite a while. Someone I don't know very well but whom I have zero reason to suspect of lying told me that her first cousin was dosed without his knowledge at a party and is still in a mental institution years later. Of course, it's different if you're dosed without knowledge of it, but that and the fact that at least one guy tested by the CIA committed suicide is a pretty strong indicator that it can have some nasty effects on one's stability, especially if the person isn't prepared. And that's the thing with LSD... no one is really prepared the first time. Of course, knowing the general effects and the importance of set and setting and all of that really helps, but no one is fully prepared... And yes, plenty of people were somewhat unstable before LSD tipped them over, but how many people can honestly say they are 100% comfortable with themselves and their lives? I'm sure there are some and that's wonderful, but most people have their dark sides, fears, etc., and LSD can shine a light on these ugly truths in a way that can really fuck people up. All of that said, the original question was about intelligence - data processing - not sanity or ability to fit in with society. I guess Those topics are great (and I guess I just encouraged more discussion of it in this thread, which is fine I guess), and I hope I don't sound like a douche in this post, but just because someone can hold a job after doing L doesn't mean it hasn't caused any harm.

 

well here is how i view acid:

i think of reality as a being in which there is only a certain amount of energy. intellect is just another form of energy. lsd can increase intellect, but it can also decrease intellect. for the amount of energy that is funneled into productive intellect increase, there is an equal and opposite amount of energy that is funneled into negative intellect decrease.

personally lsd has made me more knowledgable than i ever could have imagined. i even ended up getting up and teaching one of my higher end math classes today, because i seemed to be the only one that actually knew what was going on. one person even asked me what the meaning of life was, i chuckled.

so there are people who will gain intelligence from lsd, and there are also those who will lose intelligence. because for all that energy that was funneled into myself and others like me by acid, there is an equal and opposite energy being funneled into other people.

it really depends on the kind of person you are though, and where your lot is in life. for example my lot in life allows me to gain knowledge from lsd, while another person's lot might make them completely braindead from lsd.

the problem is though, that the majority of people whose lot in life is to be negatively receptive to lsd, will never even end up trying lsd. the path of using psychadelics and the path of being positively receptive to them and other such ideas and near to parallel. which means that the amount of people who are positively effected intellectually greatly outnumber those that are negatively effected. herein lies the problem. for all of that positive energy that is built up from the numerously positively effected individuals, there is an equal amount of negative energy buildup, and much less individuals for the energy to be channeled into. so it tends to get funneled into those select few people whose lot in life was to be negatively receptive to such ideas, but somehow still ended up using psychadelics. their negative effects usually far exceed relatively the positive effects of most others, because there is that much more energy being channeled into them.

but that isn't to say that their loss of intellect wasn't a good thing. it was their destiny if you will to have been negatively effected, and they will learn from that. maybe not in this life, but it has to happen, just as it has happened or will happen to all of our spirits. it is simply their time to learn that particular lesson.

 

I see some truth in a few of your points, but, with all do respect, I have no idea where you could get a theory like that, other than by pulling it out of thin air, probably while tripping. What reason do you have for believing that there is some cosmic law that necessitates that there is an equal amount of intellectual energy gained and lost by LSD, or is it just a metaphor? Of course some people will gain from the experience and some people won't... some people will also benefit from losing their legs in an auto accident. But, like any other chemical that acts on the brain, prolonged, frequent exposure to LSD should have at least some fairly predictable and consistent physically observable effects on the brain. Do you think this same theory applies to, say, alcohol, which is a known neurotoxin? Do you think that it is possible that short term and long term memory, problem solving ability, visual-spatial reasoning, etc. can actually be improved by long term alcohol abuse? I can see how you would say that the pros of alcohol abuse (freedom from inhibitions, for instance) could outweigh the cons, but surely you wouldn't argue that alcohol or ecstasy can actually be good for the measurable intellectual faculties of the brain. If you think that, then I think we have a very different way of looking at the world, or you just don't know about the evidence that prolonged exposure to alcohol and ecstasy wreak serious havok on the brain. If you can agree that alcohol and ecstasy are in general bad for the brain and intelligence, why are you so sure that LSD is special?

Of course going on a couple of trips can increase one's awareness, help us to think outside the box, and perhaps open up some psychological doors that could bolster intelligence in some ways. Theoretically, getting really drunk just one time could do the same thing, if when the person regains sobriety and full awareness he/she has a better understanding of his intelligence due to having lost it for a couple of hours... Of course, one's attitude towards ANY experience is a huge determinant of the experience's effects, but I don't think this is relevant in more than a trivial sense when it comes to prolonged exposure to a very powerful mind altering drug like alcohol, ecstasy, or LSD.

Edit: So here is what we can agree on. In some ways, LSD can increase what is typically thought of as intelligence. For instance, it can aid in creativity and thinking outside the box. Perhaps it can help people to get in touch with their senses. Also, I think we can all agree that LSD's effects on intelligence will depend a lot upon how the LSD is used (how often, to what end, in what context), how the user naturally processes information, how well the user is able to integrate the psychedelic experience into the rest of his life, etc. etc. However, there are also more objective measurements of intelligence - short and long term memory being very easy examples. Others would be visual/spatial reasoning, verbal ability... these are the things I am really concerned with. Most drugs seem to decrease these abilities, in general (except of course something like speed when you are on it, but abuse will erode the brain's abilities in the long run). I feel like there is a good chance LSD is harmful to memory, verbal skills (aside from creativity), etc. But I think there is a good chance it is not particularly harmful. And as has been noted, most people who have tripped a lot have also smoked a lot of weed and perhaps also had a lot to drink over the years... so who knows... but insight into this kind of thing is what I'm after.

 

I think the only intelligence that LSD can 'aid' is nonverbal intellgience. essentially, personal intelligence that you hold in your mind and can use to certain ends. but not the sort that you can just expose to other people. it is not really 'conventional' intelligence at all.

and in fact, i think that lots of acid use without regular exercise of conventional mental faculties will lead to intelligence loss.

but if you use acid and then use your mind in social and laborious contexts, then you will be able to unify the intelligences.

but otherwise you will just end up with a whole bunch of thoughts that prove only to yourself that you have 'intelligence'

and similarly, people who have never taken psychedelic trips can have a whole bunch of intelligence but not understand how that relates to themselves at the most fundamental level

and although people say you can get to the same mental states as on psychedelics, without psychedelics, I think that ths is not really possible in the fullest extent.. because one of the effects of psychedelics is to configure information process in a way that is simply unnatural, and the brain has developed in a way to prevent us tripping. by taking drugs, we are cheating nature and allowing ourselves a greater realm of senses.. but the drawback is that we end up with this rich inner world which does not really synchronise with society or with our vocabulary

 

They do have long term affects from what ive experienced but only in users taking 1000gs or not dosing at all. And im pretty sure there is short term affects but nothing some sobriety cant fix. But that is just my experience with the situation.

 

To say everything but nothing at once, this dude defiantly killed it. To an unprivileged individual there is no way they would understand that, but to us, its just what we already knew but couldent comprehend.

 

Wrong.

For a simple example, dreams are DMT trips, you know that, you were caught up in the moment. Everything else you said however was right the fuck on.

 

I've done my fair share of dosing this fall probably about 3 times a week some weeks and other weeks none for the past 9 weeks. Before this maybe twice a months for a year. Could be less just estimating. I definitely do not feel less intelligent, but less communicable with non-like-minded thinkers/non-spunions, so this my be where the confusion for non-LSD users comes in. While spunions brains may be very functional, it may be difficult to articulate the complexity of their thoughts to others-therefore maybe appearing slow.
Their definitely way a downfall of the old LSD using hippies in terms of mental health and physical health for some.
From a lot of old dead family I've met, they still get spun, but are also heavily into drugs such as pharmies to even coke and heroin. This may be where the confusion lies in regards to older hippies who might not be as on top of their game as they were when they were 25. Although they appear to be spunions-other drugs are probably also involved.

 

well dude i disagree. Even if DMT is implicated in dreams, dreams are nothing like a waking trip. ive also never heard someone talk about having a psychedelic experience during a near-death-experience. so whtaever the hell i hear about these things being related, it doesnt add up. Administering DMT during consciousness clearly produces a unique trip unlike any other natural experience.

have you ever had a dream that was anything like a DMT trip, or vice versa?

caus i havnt, nor have i read any report of such a thing.


funny that if DMT was producing a trip during sleep, why cant we get free DMT trips by getting someone to wake us up right in the middle of a dream?

 

I'd have to agree w/ StonerBill on this one.. I've never had a dream that was even remotely like a DMT trip.. Is it even scientifically proven that it is indeed DMT that naturally causes dreams? I've never seen any solid scientific documentation on any DMT research on stuff that gets thrown around the forums (ex. its released when your are born, die, dreams....).

-d

 

I think the confusion here is trying to define what is "natural," always a tricky thing. DMT exists in our brains, and our brains are almost certainly meant to receive it. In that sense, tripping is very naturally for our brains. On the other hand, our brains have also developed so that they filter our most of the information that LSD lets it. In that sense, tripping is not natural in our everyday lives. It's hard to define how our brains are "meant" to function.

 

I would say that psychedelic use has expounded on the mysteries of the mind for me, and now something which (since you know me Alan may be a shock) I never thought I would do is becoming painfully attractive : going back to school.
My ability to learn, to teach myself and to retain information has never before felt so natural and fluid. I no longer immerse myself in 2-3 books at a time, but rather Im reading half my library and can go without reading a book for months
and jump right back in with ease. My comprehension for the math and science languages seems to have increased dramatically, as well as my interest. My vocabulary could use a boost but it's been over 6 years since I've been in school so its
just a matter of a jump start.
Once my babies grow some, I get off parole and can drive again, and get my financial situation straightened out I plan to take on the challenge. That is, if I can ever afford it :tongue:
My memory seems to have been the only part which has suffered a tad, but this is surely due to alcohol. That is a drug I've abused like there's no tomorrow.
God bless

 

That's awesome dude I, too, am experiencing a renewed interest in learning. I've been in school all along, but it's taken a while for me to find my niche in college. I'm really getting into some of my philosophy classes because a lot of the topics, such as the mind and morality, are things that I feel strongly about and have done a lot of thinking about on my own. Nothing makes learning easier than genuinely caring about what it is you're trying to learn.

 

As far as I know it has never been proven that DMT exists in our brains, it is just a hypothosis, neither do I belive it, I think it is just some way that some people use to justify taking DMT.

 

It most definitley is found in the human body, what has not yet been determined is wether or not it is related to dreaming.