Can you prove that God exists?

Discussion in 'Philosophy and Religion' started by Meagain, May 29, 2004.

  1. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    God- A supreme being (one only), to whom we ordinary beings owe our existence, but whose own existence depends upon nothing else. Supreme in goodness, knowledge (omniscience), and power (omnipotent).

    Can anyone offer proof that God, as described above, exists?
    I am not asking for someone's belief in God, I am asking for an arguement or example that proves his/her existence.
     
  2. geckopelli

    geckopelli Senior Member

    Define goodness.
     
  3. Scholar_Warrior

    Scholar_Warrior Be Love Now

    dog is my co-pilot.
     
  4. backtothelab

    backtothelab Senior Member

    If God is everything that you say he is, he would prove your existance.
     
  5. Chocolate, porn, women, orgasms. Only god could have created these.
     
  6. SvgGrdnBeauty

    SvgGrdnBeauty only connect

    That's why they call it faith...you don't have to see it or have proof...you've just got to know it, feel it...
     
  7. That's the thing... You can't prove God exists, but you can't prove he doesn't either... So it's all a question of what you believe...
     
  8. veinglory

    veinglory Member

    That would be 'no'.
     
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    geckopelli,
    The Good (in relation to God)- all motives, wills, acts, and commands of God are, as a matter of fact, the right things to do. It is not possible for God to do wrong things.

    SvgGrdnBeauty et al,
    I am not talking about faith. I have faith in the Pittsburgh Steelers winning the superbowl this year, I believe they will. However, this doesn't prove anything, except my wishful thinking.

    rain_in_summer,
    I don't have to prove he doesn't exist. If someone tells me that they have a twenty legged cat that flies through solid walls and can recite the Gettsyburg Address backwards in ancient greek I don't have to prove that it dosen't exist, they have to prove that it does.
    Otherwise, it is proper, logical, and consitant for me to disbelieve as I have never seen, touched, or encountered a known case of these things occuring either seperately or together in one being.

    MidnightMoonlight,
    Telling me that you have found God is no proof nor does it exclude the neccesity of offering proof, even if you have. People are constantly relateing experiences, which they believe are genuine. So, someone could say that they have seen a ghost (a dead mother perhaps) that tells them to do this or that, and offer their experience as a logical reason for their act. Am I to believe their tale? Are all human experiences true and accurate? If one example of an inaccurate human experience has occured, can another?
    Should I go looking for this dead person's ghost?
    A waste of time.
     
  10. Eugene

    Eugene Senior Member

    I see god everyday.
    I hear god, smell god, live in god every single day.
    There is no difference between an artist and his expression, between a musician and his music, between lighting and it's flash.
    All that is is just an expression, a movement a work of art.
    And we are all god.
    We are an expression, a symphony of god's will.

    If god exists or not is bagatelle, for those who believe he does, he does to them and to those that do not he does not for them.

    God's existence is the wrong question, what god IS is the right one.

    And god is his expression, us.
     
  11. eccofarmer

    eccofarmer Member

    NAMASTE

    Prove god does not exist.Then we will have the answer.
     
  12. ericf

    ericf Member

    The question is not equal when turned around... it is not even logically valid. I believe Meagain already dealt with this very well. But maybe you missed it or wanted something a little more concrete. Prove to everyone that Shiva does not exist and that Allah does exist. Can you even do one of those? :p
     
  13. NightOwl1331

    NightOwl1331 Hip Forums Supporter HipForums Supporter

    Not everyone has the same definition of God. I think I can logically prove that an all good God does not exist though, but that depends on my definition of God. My definition of God is that it is the 1st cause. But even that isn't a good way to explain it. Think about it this way...if God created everything in existence, then God would be beyond those things. God would not be subject to the laws that It created. For example, God would have created good and bad, so God could not be either one of those. Of course, good and bad are relative anyways. It works the same for anything you can think of, God couldn't be male or female, big or small, etc. God could also not be subject to number, so God could not be 1 or 2 or 10, or even infinity because these are all human ideas. If God were subject to anything like that then there would have to have been something else that created those laws It'd be subject to. And then we're not talking about the same thing anymore. And that is why my definition of God is hard to explain because saying God is the "1st cause" implies that God is subject to time, but that is the only way I know of to put it in words. So, I do not think you can define God in any way. That is the way my mind works at least. Anyone get what I'm saying?
     
  14. If you were truly secure in your beliefs (whatever they may be) why on earth would you be asking us this question? It seems to me that you need to prove others wrong in order to boost your own security in your beliefs. Of course no one can prove that god exists, and consequently, no one (including you my dear friend) can prove that god doesn't exist.

    And if you do eventually find scientific, logical proof that the god you describe doesn't exist...so what? Why is it so vitally important to you to prove to an impoverished woman with 8 kids and nothing to live for except a faith in a supreme being that her one lifeline of support now doesn't exist? Would you really get an ego-boost from being able to prove to a widower that there is no such thing as heaven and he in fact will never see his late wife again?

    As I personally do not believe in the god you discribed, I cannot answer your cliche question. But I can only tell you this: For me, a strong benevolent force underlies everything in our universe. The proof that I have is LOVE. Throughout mankind's bloody history, love has always won. Love won against legalized slavery in the US. Love won against Hitler. Love won against the Berlin Wall. Yes, there are still "battles" that love is fighting, but humankind isn't through yet. Just the fact that love still exists after everything our race has been through is proof enough for me that we are indeed not alone, except in our personal illusions of abandondment.

    -Kate
     
  15. SvgGrdnBeauty

    SvgGrdnBeauty only connect

    That is truly beautiful. I really like the way you put that...

    Sorry all...I easily get drunk on beautiful language/words...don't mind me..:)
     
  16. Aww..thanks :)
     
  17. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Strawberry_Fields_Forever,

    "If you were truly secure in your beliefs (whatever they may be) why on earth would you be asking us this question? It seems to me that you need to prove others wrong in order to boost your own security in your beliefs. Of course no one can prove that god exists, and consequently, no one (including you my dear friend) can prove that god doesn't exist."

    Well, excuse me, Strawberry. I thought this was the philosophy forum. I had assumed that this would be an appropiate place to discuss one of the greatest philosophical issues that has ever faced mankind. One of the issues that millions of people have died for and againest for thousands of years. I am sorry I am asking people to show me just cause for the beliefs they have, the same people who would not hesitate to tell me that I am condemed to an eternal hell if I don't follow their line of thought. The same people that fight againest each other because ther God is the only true god.
    Excuse my overinflated ego for asking for proof of a being, that I am told, is the all seeing, all knowing, all caring, embodyment of the love you profess.

    "And if you do eventually find scientific, logical proof that the god you describe doesn't exist...so what? Why is it so vitally important to you to prove to an impoverished woman with 8 kids and nothing to live for except a faith in a supreme being that her one lifeline of support now doesn't exist?"

    Excuse me again. I am not addressing myself to an impoverished women with 8 kids, I am addressing myself to logical, thinking, individuals who choose to participate in a forum dedicated to philosophy. I posted this in the general section instead of the christian or other sections so that I would not be seen to be criticizing one particular religion.
    No one told you to click on my post. If you don't like it, don't read it.


    "As I personally do not believe in the god you discribed, I cannot answer your cliche question. "

    cli·ché also cliche (kl[​IMG]-sh[​IMG][​IMG])
    n.
    1. A trite or overused expression or idea: “Even while the phrase was degenerating to cliché in ordinary public use... scholars were giving it increasing attention” (Anthony Brandt).
    2. A person or character whose behavior is predictable or superficial: “There is a young explorer... who turns out not to be quite the cliche expected” (John Crowley).
    Excuse me again. I seem to be reading the wrong books on philosophy:

    "Philosphy is the collection of fundamental intellectual questions."- Philosophical Problems and Arguments, 4th edition, Cornman, Lehrer, Pappas

    Let's see, they devote 79 of 353 pages to this one cliche! In addition they offer 22 books and 4 journals for further reading on the subject. Shows what they know.
    Maybe I should ask hard hitting questions like why people like the color red more than yellow. That's real philosphy!

    I could go on, but I'll stop. My ego has already expanded enough for one day.

    I apoligize, I'll stop asking "cliche" questions.

    NightOwl1331,

    I'd comment on your 1st cause thoughts, but I'd have to get into cliches like those Aquinas, Russell, and Copleston dudes used when they were running around insulting widowers who lost their pensions. (Notive how I dropped a few names to build my ego up somemore.)


    P.S.
    Peace and love all, groovy and far out, I apologize again if I asked any one to think. (cliche)
     
  18. Sebbi

    Sebbi Senior Member

    MeAgain - Saying that God only acts in the correct manner is still abit too abstract for me. When talking about correctness and incorrectness it needs to be talked about in relation to something.

    Are you talking about right action, in relation to happiness? Do you mean that every action is the one that will result in the greatest ammount of happiness (I consider this to include learning/getting closer to enlightenment)?

    Blessings

    Sebbi
     
  19. Meagain--I meant cliche in the sense that I have heard countless atheists pose the exact same question you did. Trying to prove or disprove the existance of god is one of the oldest debates on earth, and since niether side can prove anything, I don't see how it helps anything.

    I don't understand your reasoning for trying to prove god doesn't exist. You say all these wars have been fought in the name of religion...so what? Man would have had just as many wars if religion didn't exist, he would have just found another excuse for it. In fact, more battles have been fought in the name of politics and/or land control than in the name of religion. Even if the whole world went athiest, there would still be war. What does it matter in whose name the war is fought for if the results are the same?

    You also claim to be the victim of preachy christians who shove their beliefs down your throat. Well, believe it or not, there are things you can do to prevent this. First, you don't bring up the subject of religion with anyone you don't know very well, especially if you know their very religious. Then, in the event that they bring up the subject of religion, you simply tell them: "I don't discuss my religious beliefs with people that I don't know very well." If they persist, you can always try and change the subject or even walk away. In this way, you do not deny your own beliefs and you do not offend someone who is religious. The bottom line is that you cannot enter a debate against your will. There are always alternatives.

    I have already heard all your arguments against god, just like I've already heard all the arguments from Christians in favor of god. It is nothing new to me. I do not believe in the god you discribed, nor do I feel threatened by the people who do. I am still curious as to how our world would be a better place if people didn't believe in god.

    -Kate
     
  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed & Confused Lifetime Supporter Super Moderator

    Strawberry,

    Sorry if I came down on you so hard but, I fail to understand why you are engaged in a post that you don't see any value in. In addition you made some rtemarks about my character that you have no way of supporting. But, enough.

    "I don't understand your reasoning for trying to prove god doesn't exist."


    You misunderstand. I am asking others to prove that he/she does. I am not trying to prove anything. Millions of people believe in a supreme being. I am asking if anyone can prove this supreme being's existence. I am not offering proof that he/she does not exist, I am looking for holes in their arguments of proof.

    The point is to get people to think, to think myself, and to debate the subject. In order to have a debate you must have two sides to an issue. My side is, I have observed that many people believe in a supreme being. I see no reason to believe this. Can anyone show me proof?


    "Even if the whole world went athiest, there would still be war. What does it matter in whose name the war is fought for if the results are the same?"


    Well, let's see...wars fought for politics, I don't know, you must tell me what you mean by politics. War fought for land. I can at least see why the war is being fought. The land has some value. It exists. It is a source of food, a sea route, trading route, minerals abound, oil is present, etc. Wars are terrible, but some do have reasons. Wars over gods are pointless.


    "You also claim to be the victim of preachy christians who shove their beliefs down your throat. Well, believe it or not, there are things you can do to prevent this. First, you don't bring up the subject of religion with anyone you don't know very well, especially if you know their very religious."


    Really? I never discuss religion or philosophy with anyone, not even my wife.
    Except in this forum, as that is what it is for.



    "I have already heard all your arguments against god, just like I've already heard all the arguments from Christians in favor of god."


    No you haven't. I can post pages of arguments for and againest all sorts of religious junk.
    If you choose to dismiss me so casually, so be it.


    "It is nothing new to me. I do not believe in the god you discribed, nor do I feel threatened by the people who do."


    Me either on both accounts. Do I have to feel threatened to debate a subject?


    "I am still curious as to how our world would be a better place if people didn't believe in god."


    Do you really want me to get into this? Have you ever heard of the Spanish inquisition, the holocaust, the extermination of the pagans, Templars and Cathars, the dark ages, 21st century Moslem terrorism, the Israeli conflict...shall I go on?


    BTW, I never said I was an atheist, I'm not.


    Sebbi,


    "Saying that God only acts in the correct manner is still abit too abstract for me. When talking about correctness and incorrectness it needs to be talked about in relation to something."

    [font=Verdana][size=2][font=Verdana][font=Verdana][size=2][font=Verdana][font=Verdana][size=1]I believe I said something like, If God does something it is the right thing to do. There is no need to relate it to anything. God can do no wrong. Remember I am using a set definition as to what God is and what his actions would be in relation to right and wrong. I am not debateing what right or wrong means, or if there is such a thing as right or wrong. So good is what God does, God can do no wrong.[/size][/font][/font][/size][/font][/font][/size][/font]
    Happiness does not enter the equation.










     

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