Can we now finally talk...?

What you are saying is very true. After part of Palestine was handed over to the Jews there was understandably anger and violence from the Palestinian Arabs. Instead of sticking around to help sort out their handiwork the British up and left, leaving two very angry peoples to sort it out.

This is also very true. Many of the Jews that inhabit Israel today do not have any ties to the country other than religious ones. They mostly come from outside the area, immigrating to Israel from North America, Russia and Europe. Any Christian or Muslim would have religious ties as well.

Those are the fanatics that say neither Jew nor Palestinian should exist. They are just that fanatics and they don't represent the whole population on either side.

I was lucky enough to grow up in an area heavily populated by Jews. Most of the kids I went to school with were Jewish and I was the minority. LOL Even then I took that opportunity to learn about something that was different from what I was. I have been to Temple many times, and attended many traditional Jewish ceremonies. I can also remember hearing of terrorists attacking this and that. However at that time there were both Israeli and Palestinian terrorists operating. Then I met and married my husband who's parents were Palestinian and I was thrown into something else that was different from me and what I had grown up with. More learning experiences took place, and enriched my life even more. It is my nature to walk this earth with my mind open, to learn and accept what is different from me. It is also my nature to want to know the truth for myself and not to just blindly accept what I am fed. Having been exposed to both of these cultures, and the stories I have heard from both I decided that I had better find out what was really the truth. I don't come at this without understanding both sides. Truthfully these two cultures have much in common and I wish more than anything that they could learn to get along for all our sakes.

By reading what you wrote there I think that we may be coming at it from different angles but arriving at the same place eventually. I am by no means a scholar on this subject either, but I have learned a thing or two about the M/E, I'm still learning and plan to continue.

Sorry it took so long to answer.

 

OK, last time. Egyptian and Jordanian are DIFFERENT from Palestinian. Language is different even though it is all Arabic it is a DIFFERENT dialect. The food is different, the music is different, traditions are different. Stop trying to push your bullshit. You don't know what you are talking about.

How long has Palestine been a specifically Arab country?

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."

This link was on the first page of this thread posted by LickHERish and you could have read it at anytime. Take the time to do so now. It should keep you busy for awhile. Read the WHOLE thing, then come back and we'll talk.


http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

 

I dont have much to say. But I will say is that the person who associated Israel as a reservation for the Jews is silly. People have been living there for thousands of years, and it not just one group of peoples land. Thats ridiculous. Jewish or Muslim it is not fair either way to out one of them.

The only way for the killing to stop is PEACE. There is no winner or loser. The Jews arent right or wrong, and neither are the Muslims!

 

I am NOT in favour of the way Israel treats the Arab population and I think things would have been 'a lesser of evils' if they had simply declared war on the west bank and gaza.
At least the would end things without this brutal 80 year long process of destruction.

What Im upset about is when Arabs RUIN THEIR OWN CAUSE by trying to fool and manipulate the rest of the world in order to gain sympathy for what are political causes.

EVEN IF I AGREE with the cause and aspirations of Palestinians - I do not want to be made to do so by having fake stories and tales put on me.

Here are THE FACTS:

The only 'Nation' ever called Palestine was THE JEWISH ONE after the Romans destroyed it.
(They didnt call it Palestine because they were planning to give it back to the Philistines either!)

Palestine is the name of A REGION OR LAND (amongst other historical naming conventions).
This is no different than saying 'The Gobi Desert'.
The Gobi region IS NOT A COUNTRY and there is not a people called the GOBIANS.

Now Mari is being 'clever' by stating how there have been people living there for centuries.

SO TOO WITH THE GOBI Desert! Does this mean that the Gobi land is a Country?
No!

Fact - JEWS and Arabs And Christians have lived in THE AREA sometimes refered to as the Palestine region.

In fact, Jews in that REGION were sometimes refered to as 'Palestinians'.

More Facts..

Regardless of all this, most 'Palestinians' ARE AS NEW TO THE REGION AS THE ISRAELIS!

Naturally, many of the third and fourth generations of people were actually born IN the west bank or gaza BUT they are FROM JORDANIAN, EGYPTION, and many other Arab countries who moved there AFTER ISRAEL BECAME A NATION.

Mari - YOU KNOW what Im saying is true but you are still convinced that if you can just make this sound like an Occupation of some country called "Palestine' then you will receive more sympathy.

NOT TRUE!

Not for me.

IN fact, Whenever I see this type of historical revisionism - I want to have LESS sympathy.

If Palestinians were to come out and publicly declare they are mostly Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians who moved to Israel to find work and jobs.. I think the world would BE MORE sympathetic and not less!

I read the article you referenced and it admitted that Palestine was 'a land' (which I agree)
The author DOES NOT try and say there was a nation called 'Palestine' that was taken over by 'Jews' but he sure makes it 'sound like' thats what happened.

The author correctly (in my opinion) suggest Israel had no intention of sharing the land with Arabs. I agree.

Now I challenge you to read this article.
I believe it gets the facts straight (although you may not like his wording and I didnt either)

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?ID=1309

 

Let's see...I'm not sitting here telling you that there are no such things as Jews, no such thing as Israel or that there was nobody living there before 1948. You however are doing a very good job of spouting Israeli propaganda. Well done...Sharon would be proud of you.

You didn't bother to read that link did you. You also didn't bother to see who wrote it. Take another look you might be surprised.

 

Why would you say there was no such thing as Jews, or Israel after 48?

I didnt think you would or should.

Likewise, Im not saying there is no such things as A REGION sometimes refered to as 'Palestine' before 1948!

Im not saying there wasn't Arabs living in somewhere on that region either!

Im also NOT talking about Sharon's propaganda. I dont even like Sharon and, in fact, I RARELY even pay any attention to Israeli 'propaganda' .. and when I do I am VERY critical.

The facts are the facts and I dont care if Sharon or the Egyptian Arrafat agree or disagree - fact ARE facts.

The fact is - there was no such thing as a nation called Palestine and I dont care what SHaron thinks about it!

(I did read the linked articles and Im not worried about who wrote it. An ARAB wrote the articles I linked to previously but that is not what makes them true fact based articles)

 

Alright, let me get this straight. There was a region called Palestine in which Palestinians lived, before 1948, however you say it was not a nation? What was it then? What constitutes a nation? For instance, if a nation is anarchist, and has no government or ruling party, does it cease to be a nation? On what basis do you make the call? Can you point me to any source material which might make this more clear to me?

 

Maybe reading these novels will bring more light to the discussion.
http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/UN/gatoc.html#1947

I still think the UN should be held responsible for this getting out of hand.
Changeyourlatitude

 

The region was once called 'Palestine' by the Romans (kinda an insult after injury thing they came up with)
The region was also called 'Israel' for quite a while,
The region was also inside the Roman empire.
Judea
Canaan

There is a region in your country called 'The Death Valley Region'
There is also a region called 'Northern Europe' but you would not say it is being 'occupied' by Dutch people who 'took over the nation of Northern Europe' would you?

No. There were no 'people' called 'Palestinians'.

There certainly were some people living in that area. Some were Eqyptian Arabs, others were Syrians, there were many Jewish remnants, Bedouins, Christians and even a few Gypsies now and then.

At no time did they form any nation or culture identified as 'Palestinian' although you find a few references to the Jews of that region called 'Palestinians'.

The Best 'source material' available will be any and all maps, encyclopedia and almanacs you have.
NONE will have listed a Nation or Country called 'Palestine'.

Before you go anywhere, lets just go over the next most important step though....

EVEN IF.... you were to make a case that the various peoples who lived in the area sometimes called 'Palestine' prior to 48 'were' in some stage of creating a culture to themselves .....

..... The people that you see living in Gaza and the West Bank ARE NOT THE DESCENDANTS of those Jews, Arabs and Christians who once lived in the region dubbed 'The palestine region'!

They are the families of IMMIGRANT Jordanians, Egyptians, Syrians (pick almost any Arab nation nearby)

Hal Lindsey is a Christian writer who has dedicated his life to the region and is by no means 'Anti' or 'Pro' Jew or Arab.
This link explains it well I think:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=33506

Also writing for Worldnetdaily is an Arab American Joseph Farrah and here is the link again.
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28222

and Farah has more explanation
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=15066

Even more on same topic
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22564

This article is from one of those Geocities sites and the guy sounds a little Kooky BUT... in this linked article he does ask some good question (If Palestine was a nation... what was its capitol? Language? Currency? Borders?)
http://www.geocities.com/palestiniansarelies/WhoAreThePalestinians.html

 

Oh please friend, Hal Lindsey is squarely in the fundamentalist Christian camp and a Christian zionist who buys into the revisionistic lie of "a land without a people".

I suggest you go back and have a thorough read of the actual historic development of the zionist takeover of a fully inhabited land whose occupants were driven from their legally owned land through terrorist bombings and armed Irgun brute squads.

Stop swallowing this lie which is so readily bought into by the US Christian Right, Jesus himself wouldn't support the deception!

 

Your the one manipulating words and trying to avoid facing the issue at hand Lickherish.

Look at the trickery you just pulled in that reply.

You turned it into an Ad Homonym argument by attacking the author (Instead of the article)

I dont even care who Hal Lindsey is or what he stands for - IS THAT ARTICLE TRUTHFUL.

Yes it is. I dont care if it was written by Ghengis Khan ... Deal with THE FACTS.

Then you completely avoid the actual topic and try and switch it around to a debate on Israeli tactics and intentions.

THAT ANOTHER ISSUE and I am happy to discuss the Nazi-like tactics some Zionists use, plan to use and have used.

Even IF Zionists are nothing but horrible guilty monsters - it DOES NOT MAKE A NATION CALLED PALESTINE suddenly become "More True".

Whether or not 'Right Wing Christians' correctly acknowledge that there was NO SUCH COUNTRY AS PALESTINE does not make it "More or Less True".

For what its worth - MOST people in the USA (Republicans, Christians, Liberals, Plebs etc etc) actually believe there was a Nation of 'Palestinians' who were taken over by Jews in the 20's.

MOST every westerner is absolutely convinced of this and the BUSH White House (as Clintons did) treats the Arab Immigrants in Israel (Palestinians) as if they were a people deserving of their own nation.

 

LickHerish said:

Speaking for Jesus now are you?