Can we now finally talk...?

Nice find Andrei. I enjoyed reading it.

 

Please be so consistent and substantive as to clearly demonstrate what "facts" I have claimed which are not "facts".

Everything I have posted as "fact" is duly corroborated, the same cannot be said for your glib retorts and one line dismissals.

As for your contention concerning "what if" history, obviously the concept of "illustration" clearly goes over your head. The point of the "illustration" isn't a matter of whether you would or wouldn't be faced with the same set of conditions as those you judge, but rather precisely the fact that you judge from a vantage of comfort and safety which allows you to harbour preconceived notions unavailable to those whose world is filled daily with brutal pogroms, destruction of homes, loss of family, friends and neighbours (with the ongoing tacit approval of the major powers for Israel and simulataneous villification and condemnation for their victims).

Until you can acknowledge that your perspective would, in similar circumstances as those faced daily by Palestinians, be conditioned in a vastly different manner than it is now, your arguments will continue to demonstrate little more than the very cultural relativism which excuses the architects of this conflict and condemns its victims.

 

Changing you story are you now LickHerIsh?

Originally you said

Now you seem to be full of exciting quotes saying the US sold raw materials, but providing nothing about the sale of WMD. You have changed your story because, just as I predicted, you can't back it up. So were you lying when you said the US sold WMD or did you just not know the difference between an anthrax tipped missile and a test tube sample of anthrax? If you don't, I'm not sure why you think you can lecture anyone on the subject.

For example, if a private US company sells chlorine to an Iraqi water treatment plant, chlorine they could get anywhere, and Iraq turns it into chlorine gas weapons, did the US "sell WMD to Iraq"? No, and only people like you who want to deliberately mislead would say they did. And in the example I previously provided, if a private US company sells anthrax samples to an Iraqi veterinary laboratory, given that anthrax is a naturally occurring pathogen which can be found in the soil and is often used in veterinary labs since it infects cattle, is that selling WMD to Iraq? No it isn't and you aren't fooling anyone.

In fact, not only did you ignore my points about anthrax, you went back and requoted something which I had already pointed out myself. Typical cut and paste job without reading my post.

I mean seriously, you quoted sources saying that the US sent E. Coli samples to Iraq. You want some E. Coli? Take a crap, there's E Coli in it. This is what happens when you cut and paste things you don't really understand.

 

Selling the necessary precursors as well as the financail guarantees and the technical assistance and equipment for the production of WMDs is tantamount to fully aiding and abetting in Iraq's WMD programme.

Obviously you'll seek any nuance which might allow you to rest smugly in your clear misapprehension of our direct involvement with the regime.

Perhaps one day when you have some actual political experience (which you clearly do not from your incredulity at even the basic concepts of collusion) you might actually understand the ramifications of what the evidence clearly demonstrates.

Once again, youre inability to do more than dismiss documented fact out of keeping with the illusion you wish to maintain of Washington's goodness, along with your refusal to support any counter arguments with esculpatory evidence shows you to be the intellectually dishonest one in the debate.

I shall respond to you further when you offer more than flimsy denials.

 

Megara

"i dont play "what if" history… i just dont make assumptions and try to pass them as facts."

But you do, here you are talking about the US’s involvement in the Middle East.

"oil is too simple. But people will continue to believe thats what it is about. It is more about taming the middle east. THe area has been a complete mess since Alexander died over 2300 years ago. It has been an ABSOLUTE MESS. It has been an area of constant conflict especially in the past 200 years. Getting a hold on that area will greatly reduce conflicts around the world."

Not only do you pervert the history of the ME to imply it needs US help which you are trying to pass off as fact, you then go on to claim that the US’s involvement there WILL reduce conflicts around the world which seem a rather large assumption.

 

where did i say anything of the sort? Yet another person perverting what i say. Where did i ever say the ME needed US help? Where did i say US involvement will reduce conflicts? I said democracy will. Do you want to try and dispute with me that the western democracies of the world are the most peaceful?

 

So finally you concede that the US never sold WMD to Iraq, although you chose to say they did anyway. I would say that is "tantamount" to lying.

I have been through this many times before. Keep drilling down and you find that "The US sold Iraq WMDs" turns into a non-profit lab sold anthrax samples to the University of Baghdad. "The US financed Saddam" turns into the US Department of Agriculture gave export credits for wheat shipments to Iraq, and "Technical equipment and assistance for WMD programs and facilities" turns out to mean we sold them computers and plans for pesticide plants. You see I don't just cut and paste, I actually read.

And the only reason there is such an obsession with these "dual use" materials is that 99% of Iraq's weapons came from countries other than the US. Since nobody actually cares who armed Iraq, but everybody wants to know how to blame the USA, the 99% is filtered away and we are left with export credit guarantees and lab samples which need to be somehow patched together into US-armed-Iraq theory.

The fact remains that the USSR, China and France armed Iraq conventionally, and its WMD programs were mostly home grown although with some signficant help from West Germany.

And thank you for not addressing any issues in my posts by the way. I guess you are just one of those amateur poli sci types that cut and paste and then get all flustered when someone actually challenges them on anything. The kind of thing that happens when you spend too long preaching to the converted and start to believe your own BS. In other words, you post is an E Coli sample, and therefore, according to you, a WMD.

 

What you causally dismiss (as every warmonger i have ever heard rant on as you do) as "cut and paste" is what is known to those who demonstrate intellectual honesty as "supporting evidence", something you continue to refuse to provide just as YOU continue to avoid observing proper debate method (thesis, evidentiary support, counter argument, counter support).

Thank you for continuing to demonstrate that you have NOT read the evidence provided but merely scanned it at best through your filter of preconceived denial.

Your opinion does not prevail over cold hard fact and that fact is far more extensive than some minor samples sold to a university. Try putting away your ideologically driven rejection of whatever doesn't fit your apparent allegiance to the US military industrial complex.

The facts are clear and plain and sufficient to damn longrunning US proliferation practices whether you choose to dismiss them or not.

Before citing anyone elses failure to address your points, which in this case is patently false, I would suggest you respond to arguments with more than your unsupported personal opinion or naive presumptions as to what is or is not fact.

 

Thats exactly why i said "you make assumptions and try to pass them off as facts." Read what you said carefully.. "You'd become as reactionary and perhaps suicidal as some of them." You are making an assumption, thinking you know me, on how i would respond. Dont.

As i said, i dont play what if history. I dont know how i would react under those circumstances since i cant honestly put myself into their shoes..neither can you. But i do know, that the overwhelming majority of palestinians are not going around adn killing innocents.

So once again. Stop passing off your assumptions as facts.

 

Ahh finally, despite all the other claims you make about my "assumptions" you did somehow manage to arrive at the very confession of principle which I was pointing to all along. You cannot put yourself in their shoes and thus cannot judge them as being the villains behind the failures to achieve peace which you have suggested repeatedly.



You simply regurgitate the typical spin that Palestinians are terrorists and Israelis merely defending themselves which is sold over and over again in your stock in trade "history books" despite the fact that the status quo history is utter revisionism long enforced by hardline zionism.



Suffice to say, Palestinians are the victims here and have been since this whole farce was given sanction at the turn of the 20th century.

 

Let me put this in simple terms you can understand. You said the US sold WMD to Iraq, but when pressed, you admitted they did not.

You lied.

And now you want to lecture me on "observing proper debate method"? Well here's a proper debating method: don't lie.

 

i have NEVER said the israelis were free of blame.....Quite the opposite, since i said BOTH have killed innocent people and have done wrong.

You condoning people killing innocents is disgusting. Anyone who kills an innocent intentionally is a villian. Period.

Unless you add something new, this discussion is over with.

 

Neither I nor the evidence has lied pointbreak. You simply have neither the intellectual honesty nor obviously the understanding of the US-Iraqi relationship to defend your claims with anything other than your own unsubstantiated opinion.

Go back to reading The Sun. It's about the level at which you operate.

 

It of course depends largely upon one's definition of "inncocent". Those who maintain the lie of a land without a people in order to maintain a status quo of stolen land and ethnic cleansing as subsequent generations of Israelis have so done cannot be deemed innocents.

 

Biological weapons, as you have claimed the U.S. supplied to Iraq Lickerish, are NOT WMD's. Besides that, Point_break is absolutley correct. You said in your first posts the U.S. gave Saddam WMD. No, they did not. You and anyone else have yet to provide a link that says so as well.

 

Could you say that in common terms?

Are you saying Israel has no right to its home?

The Jewish people are like American indians, they were there first and kicked out. After the second world war the UN gave them back a Indian Reservation.

Are you saying the Reservation is illegal? Or just what the hell is all of the jibberish?

Changeyourlatitude

 

The zionists are not the ancient hebrews of the diaspora. They are of Slavo-Turkic roots, not semitic (as are the minority of Arab Jews resident in Palestine alongside their equally semitic Arab Muslim neighbors in relative peace prior to the influx of militant zionism at the turn of the 20th century, with its organised Irgun death and clearance brigades (aka terrorists).

I am saying that modern Israel is no restoration of Biblical Israel but rather a secular and wholly political entity forced on the world community through a combination of collective guilt for the holocaust and an armed and organised agenda of land conscription from those who had legally owned it for hundreds of years. Thus the zionist drive to reclaim what is known as "greater Israel" (Eretz Yisrael) despite its untenable aspirations in the face of inevitable resistance from the longtime residents provided the impetus for increasingly extreme application of violence which we see continuing today both in terms of military misadventure and an infrastructure of creeping assumption of land (as demonstrated most clearly of late with the establishment of the border wall).

The matter is not one of "right to a home" since the claim is founded on a escatology dependant upon the return of the messiah which was subsequently secularised and politicised into an extremist nationalist (and wholly secular) aspiration for the creation of a nation state by force.

http://www.roadtopeace.org/history/zionism/zionism_and_war.html

That said, of course we find ourselves under obligation to deal with the status quo as it has come down to us and with that I clearly indicated my assessment of the necessary preconditions for and nature of any lasting peace settlement for the region (see my post on page 2, second post from the top).

 

Ok now.. correct me if Im wrong but my understanding is that there are no 'Palestinians' and there was no nation called 'Palestine'.

Most people calling themselves 'Palestinians' are really Jordanians who came rushing into the new Israel to 'stake out theirs too'.

Otherwise... there were some Bedoin (sp?) and actually still a few jews living there?

This is important because for years people are under some impression there was a 'State' called 'Palestine' and it had 'citizens' called 'Palestinians' and somehow all these Jews just 'took over'.

 

That is a load of zionist revisionism meant to propagate the myth of "a land without a people for a people without a land" that has been central to masking the actual timeline of incursions and atrocities that ushered in the modern secular state of Israel.

There was and remains today a "region" (not a state) called Palestine upon which the secular state of Israel was imposed by terrorism towards both the longtime inhabitants (both the minority Arab Jews, but more so their more numerous Arab Muslim neighbours).

I provided numerous research links for further study on the matter on my page 1 post in this thread. If you care to correct many commonly held misconceptions I invite you to give some time to the material provided.

 

WRONG!!

Palestinians have inhabited the area for 1000's of years. Read the links that were provided.

My husband's family are Palestinian, my father in law was born in Jaffa, Palestine, my mother in law was born in Jerusalem, Palestine as were their families for generations before. I have my father in law's birth certificate and his passport. BOTH say PALESTINE. They are not nor have they ever been Jordanians.

They did NOT come rushing into Israel to stake their claims at all. They were pushed out rather horribly. Home demolition is not a new thing it's been going on for quite some time, and whole Palestinian villages were leveled and disappeared. The inhabitants of those villages were taken out of their homes lined up against the walls and shot by Israeli's, anyone left alive was told to leave in less than a day. There are horror stories of these refugees being assaulted on the road to camps. Valuables ripped off people to the extent that blood was drawn, children abused and killed. What I've said here is very tame compared to actually hearing it from someone who experienced it, and there are many.

The only thing I can say to you is to stop believing the propaganda put forth by Israel and search for the truth yourself. Most of it lies in those links that were provided. READ them and LEARN.