Can we now finally talk...?

Discussion in 'America Attacks!' started by Andrei, May 19, 2004.

  1. Andrei

    Andrei Member

    I found this little article to be wonderfully poignant and biting:

    Can we now finally talk...?

    Revolutionary Worker #1241, May 23, 2004, posted at http://rwor.org

    They said the war was for Weapons of Mass Destruction. But there were none.

    They said the war was about terrorism--but no ties to al-Qaida were ever found.

    They said the war was to end mass graves--but Bush's troops sent hundreds of Iraqi people in Fallujah to mass graves.

    They said the war was to bring "freedom and democracy" to Iraq--but all it brought was a brutal occupation--house to house searches, shutting down newspapers, postponing and controlling elections, jailing people for expressing opposition.

    They said the war was to remove the regime of Saddam Hussein--but now they are elevating former Baathist generals to be new warlords in areas of resistance.

    And they said the war was about ending "torture chambers and rape cells"--but now we all know that U.S. military intelligence and CIA took over the regime's prisons to carry out torture and rape.

    So...can we now all, finally, talk about the real causes of this long-planned war? About the imperialist strategies of empire? About the capitalist grab to dominate the Persian Gulf and the oil arteries of the world? And about the naked push to dominate the whole world at gunpoint--starting with this weakened, resource-rich, and highly strategic country of Iraq?


    This article is posted in English and Spanish on Revolutionary Worker Online
    http://rwor.org
    Write: Box 3486, Merchandise Mart, Chicago, IL 60654
    Phone: 773-227-4066 Fax: 773-227-4497

    More Anti-War articles in this week's Revolutionary Worker:

    Revelations Lead to Rumsfeld's Door

    The Trail of Torture: Orders from High Places

    Iraq: Torture Is the Essence of Empire

    A Long, Bloody History: Torture American Style

    Revolutionary Worker Anti-War Page: http://rwor.org/resistance/
     
  2. Megara

    Megara Banned

    i didnt know that al qaeda were the only terrorists in hte world. We have known that saddam supported terrorism for awhile(funding palestinian suicide bombers families)...why do people overlook that?
     
  3. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Saddam didn't "fund" suicide bomber families. His government like most other Arab governments made compensatory payments to failies of those who had already lost members to such. It was not a priori to the bombings.

    Megara, stop taking the sanitised and econtextualised drivel that passes for news in the US as any sort of truth of what has gone on or is currently going on.

    The first casualty of war is the truth and our domestic media have all been in bed with these liars, supporting their every contention until proven unwise to do so, since the start.

    If you want to learn about sponsoring terrorists, you need only look to the School of the Americas where we train them up to do our dirty work throughout the globe.

    As for your denials of US sales of chemical weapons to Iraq, perhaps this will enlighten you out of your false notions...

    http://www.progressive.org/0901/anth0498.html
     
  4. Megara

    Megara Banned

    once again you have taken something i said and completely twisted it and utterly misrepresented what i said...where did i ever say that the US didnt give iraq some chemical weapons or agents?


    And yes, they were in compensation..but hello! when you have people living on nothing..25,000 dollars for your family and 72 virgins for yourself sounds pretty freaking tempting! it DID encourage suicide bombing...it is not inaccurate to say that.
     
  5. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    The only thing encouraging suicide bombing is the neverending duplicity and brutal human rights abuses which zionist led Israel has perpetrated against the Palestinians since the first waves of settlers began returning to perpetrate their own terrorism on the rightful Arab owners of the land and the British forces stationed there.

    Once they were done driving people from homes and lands they legally owned for generations, they demolished many towns that once existed in order to perpetruate the myth of " a land without a people" which you obviously gullibly subscribe to.

    http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/7891/Palumbo_chptr1.html

    http://members.fortunecity.com/911/palestine/facts.htm

    I suggest you educate yourself to the true history of Palestine and not that revisionist crap taught us in school by our government which has been squarely under the thumb of AIPAC since the state was duplicitously handed over to those with no legal right to it back in 1949 (out of common guilt for the holocaust).

    http://www.cactus48.com/truth.html

    To this day Israel's interest is nothing less than total assumption of all lands of "greater Israel" which hasn't existed since the days of the Persian empire (and another reason why our current PNAC agenda of conquering Israel's Arab neighbours is equally to serve the hardline zionist lust for the restoration of that far reaching control throughout the Middle East). Thus every failure to achieve peace can be traced back not to the disingenuinity of the Palestinians at the bargaining table, but rather to Israel.

    http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

    http://gush-shalom.org/media/barak_eng.swf
    (an example of precisely the sort of duplicity which has lain behind every claim that failure to achieve peace was/is the fault of the Palestinians).

    Whilst you obviously buy into the zionist revisionism of documented culpability from the very start, I suggest you ask yourself to what extent you would be willing to go after having had your familiy driven out of your home, shot, raped, or any combination thereof, your town demolished (all with the atrocious consent of the world community and more particularly the US), your children and neighbours routinely snipered or rocketed and every act of self defence ultimately decried by the new status quo as "terrorism" whilst the same acts perpetrated upon you and those areound you merely winked at and chided with hand slaps.

    Sorry friend, but any red blooded American, given our gung ho insistence on the right to bear arms and to use them against government oppression, would equally be out there blowing away whomsoever dared attempt perpetrate the same sort of brutality on us (be it man, woman or child).

    When you have lost everything and the world condemns your resistance as justification for yet further atrocities to be carried out against you, i think youd be in line for strapping yourself up and taking as many of them with you as possible.

    Time we proved ourselves a genuinely neutral arbiter and issued Israel the ultimate warning... cease all crimes against humanity, be content with your 1967 borders and quit all claims to ""greater Israel" or face total and irrevocable cessation of all funding from the US. I for one abhor that my tax dollars go to support these true anti-semites (Palestinians, fyi, ARE a Semitic race whilst modern Israelis are of Slavo-Turkic descent and not semitic at all (apart from the religion itself).

    http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/khazars.htm

    http://www.answering-christianity.com/anti_semites.htm
     
  6. Mari

    Mari Member


    EXCELLENT POST!

    I should also say that I have enjoyed reading all your posts. They are well written, informative and truthful. Thank you! :)

    The ethnic cleansing of Palestinians continues to this day with the full backing and moral support of the US government. :(

    Thank you for posting the sites as well, I have been to one or two in the past couple years and will have a look around the others over the next couple days.

    Perhaps you would also like to visit here: http://electronicintifada.net/new.shtml There are some interesting articles by the owner of the site, and the diaries are worth a look at as well.






     
  7. Megara

    Megara Banned

    it was a complete non sequitur from what i said..but thats alright, some people need to just vent their anger on israel.
     
  8. Mari

    Mari Member

    Perhaps you should take a look at those diaries on that site as well as reading the links LickHERish posted and learn a few things.
     
  9. Megara

    Megara Banned

    i dont have time to read through every link someone throws my way, tohugh i have read several...

    With that said, i know both sides do evil. Its small minded people who blindly jump on one side without condemning the actions of their own. There is no excuse for the amount of innocents killed on BOTH sides. But people who some how condone Hamas and the like are disgusting human beings..there is NO excuse for what they do.

    There is a difference between groups like Hamas and the Spear of the Nation(The ANC's militant wing). One has a sole purpose of destroying innocents and killing as many innocent people as possible...and the other was taking out STATE facilities like railways and power generators...while the Spear of the nation killed innocents, they were in no way like Hamas and other terrorists like them. I can respect them and not Hamas. I hope lickherish isnt going to come back and tell me that the black south africans didnt suffer.

    hold somoene else in contempt
     
  10. Mari

    Mari Member

    Ah yes, such as the IDF. What side of that big fence you are on makes a huge difference in just who the terrorists actually are.

    Hamas has the support it does because no other organization is willing to actually fight Israel. I don't agree with the methods used by either side. I think they are both disgusting and wrong. However the point was made that if it was your family sitting in a refugee camp being fired upon, starved and treated like so much rubbish you wouldn't be too happy about it either.

    That site is very tame compared to some others I've seen. It also has reports from people that actually live in the occupied territories some of them are actually Jews that have travelled to Israel on the birthright program. They have left those tours to find out the truth, you should read some of them. Might open your eyes a bit, and give you some insight as to why Hamas exists, and why there is so much anger towards Israel and the US.

    As a matter of fact many Palestinians condem Hamas for their actions and want no part of their activities, but they are being made to pay for them regardless. Israel has succeeded in brainwashing the west into thinking that every Palestinian is a terrorist, that they are sub-human liars with no claim to anything, when nothing could be further from the truth, and they know it.
     
  11. Pointbreak

    Pointbreak Banned

    You know what I really like? When people don't read their own links. Yes, I'm talking about you, LickHerIsh.

    The article you link to doesn't even come close to saying that the US sold WMDs to Iraq. Like many, you appear to robotically cut and paste the same links as everyone else who says the US sold WMDs to Iraq, without actually paying much attention to the content.

    The reality is that a non-profit US laboratory sold anthrax samples to the University of Baghdad. Anthrax samples used to be sold to veterinary labs all over the world without any worries, partially because anthrax is a naturally occurring pathogen which is present in the soil all over the world. It is NOT a top secret bug which only exists in secret underground military research facilities.

    Now many people have deliberately sexed this up into "the US sold WMD to Iraq" but that's just not true. Next time read your own links.

    You also make the tired assertion that Palestinians only commit suicide bombings because of Israels' inherent evilness. Well look around the planet, you might find that Palestinians are not the most oppressed people in the world, yet they are world champions at suicide bombing civilians. You will also notice that incidents of suicide increase and decrease. Are people becoming instantly more or less hopeless? No, they are being used as a deliberate policy by people who can turn them on and off like a tap.

    Maybe for some reason you find yourself incapable of critisizing people who deliberately mass murder civilians, or maybe you think apologising and rationalising for these people somehow helps. Maybe you just can't accept anything other than your vastly simplified version of events.

    Which is why you would rather try to incite hatred with talk about "Greater Israel". Tell me, is withdrawing from Lebanon part of the greater Israel plan? Was withdrawing from Egypt part of the plan? Is the planned Gaza evacuation part of the greater Israel plan? If these are all part of the plan you should start hoping for a greater Israel because eventually it is going to expand all the way back to the 1967 borders.
     
  12. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    What most Americans back home also fail to understand (or more likely simply are not told either by tv or any print media) is that HAMAS is also the only extensive social safety net left to the Palestinians. If not for HAMAS, many sick and starving Palestinians might not get any care whatsoever and when entire neighbourhoods are demolished as we had in the past days (creating hundreds upon hundreds of new homeless people) if not for HAMAS they would remain without and facilities for shelter whatsoever.

    Im sorry Megara, but the simple fact comes down to this. If i walked into your living room right now armed to the teeth and drove you out and shot your mom and dad and perhaps raped you if i was so inclined and then you called the police only to hear them say, we're working on it, just go live in a motel and be happy, we'll figure something out for you some day...

    You would be stunned and shocked and in total distress and disbelief that blatant criminality could be approved by those with the power.

    Well go read the history of this conflict as i provided. Youll see how that is the very case from the start here.

    Why should more than a half century (correction, a century) of total contravention of international law, historic revisionism and the establishment of a status quo which fundamentally makes any mention of "the rule of law" an utter joke be simply accpeted and afforded any legitimacy whatsoever whilst it continues to show its brutal intent and its own underlying racist pricinple (research zionism as a theory and the nature of the two tiered Israeli society where even Arab jews (the original minority of jews who coexisted peacefully with their islamic arab neighbours until the first waves of zionists began their murderous acts)).

    If the truth be told, what i favour is more constructive and extreme than the zionist movement would allow which is why i believe that certain elements should be booted out of Israel and the remainder opened up to full constitutional equality for Israelis and Arabs (Palestinian or Israeli) to live in one state with full parliamentary representation.

    THAT however flies in the face of the paranoia and lust for exclusivistic control the zionist movement inundates Israeli society with and uses to stir up conflict to provoke retaliation to justify more brutality.

    Its a holocaust in its own right and the world and certainly our good ol US of A sing praise and hallelujah to Israel as if Jesus is smiling down on it and packing his bags to return.

    Until AIPAC is demolished and sidelined in the US as any kind of political force and similarly the Likhudnics and their rabid hardliner (increasingly South African strangely enough) coalition partners ousted, you will never see an end to the conflict in your lifetime. Ive been reading and hearing the same thing over and over for over 20 years and its always the same rhetoric and excuses and justifications and villifications.
     
  13. Megara

    Megara Banned

    while i sympathize with innocents killed..that does not give them the right to kill other innocent people. Period.



     
  14. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Sorry let me correct some typos here since (ONCE AGAIN THE EDIT FUNCTION ISNT WORKING) ;)

    accpeted = accepted

    (research zionism as a theory and the nature of the two tiered Israeli society where even Arab jews (the original minority of jews who coexisted peacefully with their islamic arab neighbours until the first waves of zionists began their murderous acts)).

    should read:

    (research zionism as a theory and the nature of the two tiered Israeli society where even Arab Jews (the original minority of jews who coexisted peacefully with their islamic arab neighbours until the first waves of zionists began their murderous acts) nor Christians of any ethnic background have the same rights as Ashkenazi Jews).
     
  15. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Very easy to say that sitting smug and safe in your comfy home.


    I have no doubt that you would be much different standing in the rubble of your house with your slain family around you and no sympathy nor justice for your grief.

    Youd become as reactionary and perhaps suicidal as some of them. Revenge is a powerful force and one which you would be foolish to write off.
     
  16. Megara

    Megara Banned

    i dont play "what if" history.
     
  17. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Thus you live in the delusion that it can't happen here. Well happy delusions.
     
  18. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    Excerpt from article which shows you the willfully blind or extremely challenged in your reading comprehension...




    Imagine that, the liberal media even said nothing, oops there goes that little stock in trade counter retort.



    I suspect most intelligent persons here will see clearly that you in fact did not bother to read anything and merely have been duly indoctrinated that Washington are the good guys.
     
  19. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

    I point out again in even finer detail from the above linked article...




    OOps appears Washington knew precisely what they were doing.

    But don't let the facts dissuade you from lapping up the lies of your obvious idols.
     
  20. Megara

    Megara Banned

    no i just dont make assumptions and try to pass them as facts.
     

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