Can guns save you from suppression?

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Balbus, Jul 21, 2020.

  1. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    In 2007 I began a thread with a question - Can guns save you from suppression?

    Before then and since then there were many gun owners that told me that their reasons for owning guns was to stop ‘tyranny’ to stop the government from going ‘too far’.

    My view was that historically and rationally that stance didn’t seem to stand up to scrutiny.

    I’ve pointed out that in US history guns owners weapons have more often been for suppression than against it and so I would ask what they would call tyranny and at what point would they begin using their guns against it.

    And I’ve pointed out that authoritarian regimes don’t disarm the people that support them.

    I’m not advocating for the use of guns I’ve long argued they are not a good way to settle social problems.

    But to the question of how would you describe a tyranny was answered by one of these gun owners who said it would be when secret policemen began taking people off the street in unmarked cars.

    So what do the gun owners of the US feel about what is going on in American cities today?

    Can guns save you from suppression?
     
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  2. Idlewild

    Idlewild Members

    If the government wants to suppress or oppress the populace, there's not really much we can do about it on a personal level other than protest and vote them out if it hasn't gotten so bad that the elections are no longer legitimate. Owning a gun isn't going to do you much good, since you'll be vastly outnumbered going up against the police. Citizen militias have more power, but as you pointed out, they're generally on the side of the oppressor.

    Personally, I own a gun to protect my family--not from the government, but from crazy right-wingers. I've never even fired it. I really should to make sure it works, but just haven't made it out to a gun range, and probably won't until after the pandemic is over.
     
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  3. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    I’m stockpiling my defenses to prepare for the Trump re-election victory riots.
     
  4. Orison

    Orison my dog is full of stars Lifetime Supporter

    Suppression from what?
    What police are you talking about since I'm friends with 90% of the police in my neighborhood and some..

    They are not my enemy.
    Im a member of my neighborhood council, this is an expansion of City council .

    Again I'm very close to law enforcement. Lol


    Who in the fuck wants lawlessness?


    What are you smoking?
     
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  5. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    No one I suppose

    But even you would agree that gun ownership is not for people who are friends with cops. It's for people to have some protection from cops or whoever else. So people who are friends with the system are not really the best judge of the system. The world is bigger than the American right wing and most of us see the flaws in your view.

    The 2nd amendment is not a 1 way st nor does it go away if you play poker with the guy. With current news we see how rotten and racist many cops are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2020
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  6. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    But as I said authoritarian regimes don’t go against their supporters. I don’t see the police as the enemy but at the same time are they always guaranteed to be the constitutions friend?

    Traditionally most police forces are filled with people that lean to the right in 2016 a survey of US police officers indicated that 84% said they would be voting for Donald Trump - eighty-four per cent.

    In other times and places the police have not stood in the way of right wing authoritarian moves some even supported the move.

    So in many places right wing police are more likely to be supportive of fellow right wingers and be more hostile to those with opposing views.

    And in other times and places those seeking power at the ballot box have asked their supporters to ‘monitor’ elections many of them even been arm, this was done in Germany in 1933 and Trump has suggested it for 2020. I believe Hitler even made many of those those supporters’ auxiliary’ police.

    I’m not saying what we have here is the same thing as the rise of Nazis Germany but the idea that a right leaning police force and armed right wing supporters will always be a guarantee against the introduction of tyranny is I think rather naïve.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2020
  7. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    With hindsight people might be shocked to think that most of the German Police willingly backed Hitler but it has to be remembered at that time the Nazis had provoked street fights in many German cities with left wing groups, that they portrayed as thugs, rioters, communists and anarchists (antifa) .

    Then through propaganda the Nazis promoted the idea that the state was in jeopardy of collapsing into anarchy and that Hitler’s strong leadership was needed to ‘restore’ order.

    Hitler promised the police his full support – and gave it

    Adolf Hitler posed as a champion of law and order, claiming he would uphold traditional German values. The police and many other conservatives looked forward to the extension of police power promised by a strong centralized state, welcomed the end of factional politics…Nazi state in fact alleviated many of the frustrations the police experienced in the Weimar Republic. The Nazis shielded the police from public criticism by censoring the press. They ended street fighting by eliminating the Communist threat. Police manpower was even extended by the incorporation of Nazi paramilitary organizations as auxiliary policemen. The Nazis centralized and fully funded the police to better combat criminal gangs and promote state security. The Nazi state increased staff and training, and modernized police equipment. The Nazis offered the police the broadest latitude in arrests, incarceration, and the treatment of prisoners. The police moved to take "preventive action," that is, to make arrests without the evidence required for a conviction in court and indeed without court supervision at all.

    Many people were sucked in by the propaganda and once Hitler gained enough power it was impossible to go back only forward into horror and tragedy.

    The trick is not to take the bait
     
  8. unfocusedanakin

    unfocusedanakin The Archaic Revival Lifetime Supporter

    The truth is a civil war has not been possible for many decades. The 2nd amendment is from a time when a mob of men was equal to a king. There is no tanks, jets, bio weapons etc. After WW1 Americans become "slaves" to their goverment just as much as Europe.

    If you assume the goverment is corrupt they will use those things. We see in current times how well a bio-weapon can work I mean I wanted to take over America I would kill Republicans. They are the most likely (but not only) group to own guns and form a resistance. I can kill them and they will accept it because they don't see reality. By the time they do it's too late.

    Or what if I just bombed them? This is why the more extreme militias want to own nukes. They know they stand no chance even if they do have thousands of dollars in accessories for their assault riffles. My time with a militia showed me their goal does not seem to actuly defending all of America. More like they understand that without serious weapons they will commit guerilla attacks for years and eventually the man will just give up. Think what happened in the Middle East or Vietnam. America has the serious weapons so why do they fail?

    We can't ignore the political divide either. Look at America now. Isn't a secret police force supposed to why people own guns? But no one helps those people because for many years it's been the fascists who are most interested in firearms. This is why most Americans don't really support gun ownership. Because we can see WHY you want the gun and it's not to protect us. It's to kill the majority so your un-Amercian conservative society can exist.

    Revolution only works if you have a good percent of the military on your side. It's not 1776 anymore. Conservative gun owners don't really do change though so if it worked then it will work now.
     
  9. Rehab44

    Rehab44 Members

    The only three countries that consider gun ownership a constitutional right are Mexico, Guatemala and the United States, I suppose that says it all.
     
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  10. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Gee, that sounds like Trump!
     
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  11. Balbus

    Balbus Super Moderator Staff Member Super Moderator

    MeAgain

    When I read it I did think wow with just some small edits it could be turnwd into 'realistic' type statement given out by the White House. That worryingly I think many police officers and right winger would support.

    We would like to protect the police from the fake news media.

    We will use any force to stop the violent anarchist on our streets

    We would like to allow the police to deputies auxiliary policemen if they think they need them.

    We wish to fully fund the police to better combat criminal gangs and promote state security.

    We wish to increased staff and training, and modernized police equipment.

    We wish to offer the police the broadest latitude in arrests, incarceration, and the treatment of prisoners.

    We think the police should be allowed to take "preventive action," that is, to make arrests without the evidence required for a conviction in court and indeed without court supervision at all.

    I mean trump has already told the police that they don’t have to be so gentle with those they arrest doesn’t think there is any problem with institutional racism and has no problem with using force against peaceful protestors which his admin have called violent anarchists. And now you have paramilitary secret police on the streets in US cities.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2020
  12. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    Yes, Hitler must have been oh so confident in his police force that he created the Geheime Staatspolizei.

    Don't get the two mixed up anytime soon or anything while you educate us with your own fictional propaganda. :tearsofjoy:
     
  13. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    The Geheime Staatspolizei, or Gestapo, was Hiltler's private police force formed by combining various German police forces.
    Remember the White Rose intellectual student group who resisted Hitler by writing graffiti and distributing leaflets?
    Many were imprisoned and murdered, by the Geheime Staatspolizei, Hitler's private army. Their leaders, Hans and Sophie Scholl, were executed by guillotine four days after their arrest for distributing leaflets, "fake news".
     

  14. All those shitty crime infested spots in the US are areas that have been controlled by the Democrats for decades, long before Trump was President


    But your use of the phrase "’ auxiliary’ police" there kind of gives away what you dont know about Germany in the 1920s
     

  15. LOLz, you googled Geheime Staatspolizei then explained to the German who had a grandfather that served in WW2 that that is the Gestapo?

    Since you are such an expert, can you tell us how it got abbreviated? (Hint:the version on wikipedia isnt the correct one)
     
  16. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    Let's think about that. Because we have a representative government. It could very well be that the majority simply preferred a democratic establishment. So does it matter which came first, the chicken or the egg? Democrats are doing a lot more for the majority if you ask me - the majority being the middle and lower class combined.

    I think it's pertinent to realize that crime comes from poverty, and the democratic party is doing its part to combat just that! :)
     
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  17. soulcompromise

    soulcompromise Member HipForums Supporter

    Do you mean who coined the term? I'm sure it's abhorrent...
     
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  18. Irminsul

    Irminsul Valkyrie

    I don't get it.

    So people don't want other people having guns

    But

    If they take guns then Donald Trump is a Nazi and the police are Gestapo's?

    Lol.
     
  19. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    I think the idea is that resistance is futile. The notion of a citizens' militia resisting the armed forces is a fantasy. Such civilian forces are effective only to supplement the fire power of a tyrannical regime.
     
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  20. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    I don't profess to know everything.
    When I don't know something, I do research to try and understand what I don't know...to learn.
    Was something I posted wrong?

    I had a father that served in WWII, also many other relatives. So what's your point about relatives serving in WWII?

    Unless the answer is relevant to the conversation, I really don't care how Geheime Staatspolizei got abbreviated.
     
    Tishomingo likes this.

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