CAMPBELL34 VS. LIBERTINE :The War To Settle The Score...

I could give a lot of my personal proof for my God, but you refuse to hear it. The Bible offers a Great deal of proof for God's existance, but you refuse to consider it. Now you say, Ok, I have one more hoop for you to jump through. Just give me a little proof of your "God". Without personal experience, and the Bible, there is little proof outside of God's creation to point to a Master Builder. Yet, I will say this, almost everyday on these posts you haved slammed the Christian faith, and the Bible, and have branded it as false. Yet as soon as someone stands up to defend it, you are the first one who stands up, and then states, "I will not allow you to us the Bible to prove God's existance."
At this point, I don't believe I am actually speaking with you. I believe I am converseing with the demon's that control you. You see, I believe you turned your back on God a long time ago. And when you did that, the only thing that filled that void, was the evil that is in this world. One of the ways Christian's can identify that evil, is by observing those who oppose the Bible with intensity. They are often very vocal in their opposition to it, yet, when it comes to debating it. They are the first one's to run away. Don't you think it strange, that a man who never misses an opportunity to attack the Bible, suddenly refuses to debate it. What is it about the Bible, that makes you back away. And you know, others here are beginning to question why you refuse to consider the Bible in this debate. Do you only speak against the Scriptures, when the Scriptures can't speak back? Your continual refusal to debate the Bible on it's own merits, will only strengthen my arguement.

 

Yet you will believe a scientist when he says/writes, "The sun is 93 million miles away". How do you know that scientists aren't lieing either?

 

There is significant proof of the Sun's temperature, the approxiamte values are:

Surface temperature 5780 K = 5507 C = 9944 F
Temperature of corona 5 MK = 4999727 C = 8999540 F
Core temperature ~13.6 MK = 13599727 C = 24479540 F

You may be referring to distance, 93 million miles.


The question, a very significant question, is why are we concluding about the issue, "Does God exist," and, also, why are we discounting individual insight and experience ? Some of our greatest discoveries and inventions have come from people who have 'lived alone' with these insights in that they, initially, where not able to provide proof of their insight or awareness. And we should be aware that it may be, and to me appears implicit, that there are many folks who have insight that has siginificant potential "'external' validity" and usefulness that could be translated from the internal langauges of the mind into an "'external' form" that renders it's "'external validity' and usefulness" but that is/are not translated in the aforementioned manner. We should be cautious about prejudging these beliefs and be rational in that we say that we cannot yet offer proof.


Peace,

David


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Premise #1- Does God Exist? Campbell issues "revelations" which are not objective evidences, but are very subjective. Any claim can be made through "revelation" by any religion or superstition. Anyone can be deceived or make up stories or attribute post hoc explanations.


Premise #2- DOES God Exist? This time Campbell resorts to the Bible to "prove" God exists. There are TWO problems with this:

1) The Bible is a book that has been "interpreted" by thousands of religious groups, yet Campbell wants me to accept his "interpretation" as correct. However, even if Campbell is 100% correct (which he wants me to assume), that STILL doesn't prove an Omni-Max deity (which he would want me to automatically assume) no more than "Gone With The Wind" (which uses historically accurate settings) proves the existence of Rhett Butler or Shakespeare's writings prove that Romeo & Juliet are historical, rather than fictional characters.

2) The basis of this usage by Campbell isn't just history, but "fulfilled prophecies". Here we have MULTIPLE "INTERPRETATIONS" again, by MULTIPLE religious groups. Yet Campbell will take what he wants and fit it into his preconceived notions. That's call APOLOGETICS, folks. I took years of training in that field as well. Until I couldn't keep inventing shit and lying to myself and realized that no matter what objection was given, the school of thought of apologetics would press, pull, squeeze or do whatever it takes to fit it into the Christian filter-box or do away with it altogether.

All I have asked of Campbell is clear. GIVE ME OBJECTIVE EVIDENCE OF YOUR "GOD" and THEN we can have a foundation on which to discuss your Bible. Instead he wants to use "God's Word" to prove the existence of all qualities of "God" based on its "accuracy" of his "interpretation" of the "prophecies" made centuries ago that are being "fulfilled" today. Yet, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, JEWS and all other Semitic religions can't seem to agree on it. I guess since Campbell can hear the "AUDIBLE VOICE OF GOD", he is the Prophet of his generation. But, alas, until he can tell me my real name, my real address and what my son's soccer team is called, I'll be skeptical of his prophetic nature and the vague prophecies interpreted by him in the BUY-BULL.

So, now he resorts to avoiding the question and accusing me of having demons since I will not allow him to play his apologetic game and try trap me in a labyrinth of what he "interprets" as the "prophecies fulfilled". This is a good tactic used by many JW's and Mormon's and other brainwashing sheep-cults.

If you can blow me away with brilliant evidence, try to trap me in a vague wall of "interpretation".

Sorry, Campbell, this devil is a little too smart for that.

 

What you are smart at, is slamming the Bible on this fourm, but then ducking the issue when called to respond. You have no lack of words when putting the Bible down, but refuse to defend your position, when challenged to do so.
The Bible really bothers you, doesen't it. The more you refuse to debate the Bible, the stronger my position becomes. How long are you going to hide behind all your false fronts? I don't care what other religions say about the Bible. I'm not asking them to speak for you. I'm asking you to consider the Written Word. The Bible is my foundation, and if you have years of training in the field, surely it should be easy for you to disprove the evidence set forth in the Bible. Now, will your little friends allow you to debate the Biblical evidence? Or will you guys just play more hide and seek games?

 

The Bible states what happen there. Extra Biblical evidence was found chisled in stone which mirrors the story of the Bible. Those who heard the story for years did not believe it. Then not many years ago they discovered the site. Everything the Bible stated was found there. Now with the Egyptain army discovered coral incrusted on the floor of the Red Sea between the pillars of King Solomon. All doubt is removed. On one of the pillars there had an inscription the other pillars inscription was partly worn off. The inscription reads. "This monument is erected by King Solomon, king of Israel, in honor of Yahweh in commemoration of the crossing of the Red Sea." There was much more evidence to mark this spot, you would have to be a blind man if you did not understand what took place there. The Bible does not fabricate stories, and that is why even after thousands of years, it's stories are being verified. I might point out that there is an evenness to the burnt top of the mountain that would ruel out radom lightning strikes. Also the area of this burnt top is large. And there was nothing natural about the Children of Israel walking through the Red Sea with the Egyptians right behind them only to have the Sea close over the Egyptains shortly after the last Jew made it to the other side.

The three top Rabbies in Israel some years ago all stated that they have seen the Ark found in a room under the Temple mount near one of the orginal Temple entrances. It is believed that after the third Temple is built, they will place the Ark in the rebuilt Temple.

 

I think you are losing it, Campbell. Take a pill.

This PARTICULAR DEBATE is "Does God Exist?"

I have already explained my position to you and practically, gave you chance after chance to come to terms with this debate.

Each time you have resorted to changing the subjecting, claiming "revelation" and "interpretation" as objective evidence in the face of reason, slammed the rules of debate, attempted to provoke me into a false debate over Biblical Criticism when this debate is about objective proof of "God", ignored that I offered to debate you on Biblical Criticism AFTER this particular debate, attempted to provoke me through stealing my words and trying to turn the table to put me on the defensive (the skeptic) and basically said a whole lot of NOTHING.

I think it is time for the rest of the people to speak on the Forums.

If you think Campbell has avoided the issue and you see what I am saying, let it be known.

If you think Campbell is in the right and I am avoiding the issue, let it be known.

Obviously, you nor I will agree on who's avoiding whom. So, let's let the people decide. I trust them to be honest.

 

If I may..I think it simply impossible to prove the existence of God objectively. To do so, one would have to be the all-conclusive Omni-Being Itself. The Creator being the Creator and creature the creature..it is only by subjection/submission in matters of faith (inward spirit recollection) that The Author of Creation can be realized (to whatever degree this discipline is appropriated). Gods ways work from the inside-out, as reflected in all his creation. The mutation of all wholes, whether atoms, molecules, cells, to the fully developed human organism, works from the center -outwardly. Hence, 'I Am the Vine, you are the branches' 'keep your heart (divine center) with all diligence, for out of it are the well-springs of life' 'it shall be in you a well of water, springing-up into everlasting life' etc.


Other than that, as you were. peace all, meta

 

I never changed the subject, but you forced me to change my approach. Twice you made up your own rules that I never agreed to. Your the one on these posts who have stated, "Christians put up or shut up." So I guess we can only put up, when you allow it. Not once did you hear me say, "I will not allow you to do that." And I don't put strings on my statements. "If you do this Campbell, I will allow that." That's all you do. You agree to a debate a Christian, and then you say, now we can talk about everything but your personal experience with God, and don't talk about the Bible. That's like asking someone who likes Chevys, "what do you think about that car. But what ever you do, don't talk about your experience in one, and don't talk about Chevys. Your whole purpose here is to slam the Bible, and deny God. And to remove from me the very tools that could prove that the Bible is the Word of God. I do not believe you came here for an honest debate. From the beginning you barred any information that could be debated. The only way you could win this debate, is by the use of CENSORSHIP. And believe me, you use it BIG TIME.

 

Campbell, do you even understand the rules of debate??

Apparently not!

You are chasing other threads that I've posted in the past. Who gives a fuck?

This is THIS THREAD. This is THIS SUBJECT.

Stop trying to avoid the issue for once.

Hell NO, you can't use "revelation" or "interpretation" as objective evidence because, guess what?, THEY ARE NOT OBJECTIVE.

My patience is wearing thin with your bullshit tactics.

Answer the question or this "debate" is O-V-E-R. I refuse to waste anymore space.

I will not respond to you unless your next post is evidence. You can use anything you want, provided it is something that ANYONE could see as AT LEAST an objective argument. Hell, I'll even take THAT!

Anything to start this debate, because if it ain't startin' ... I ain't stayin'. I've got more important things to do.

 

I'll decidedly second what Libertine is saying.

Christianity, or any other faith, cannot be proven.

No person of faith can argue a faith in any way - because it is impossible. All I see coming from the other side is nothing but ad hominem remarks, attempts to change the issue or basically throw the whole shooting match into outer space.

I think what it has finally boiled down to it is this.

YOU claim that your personal experience is paramount - that regardless of what any Book says, or doesn't say or what have you, that you started hearing Voices and as a result are now convinced there is a God. Congratulations. You are officially a Theist. Note that any declaration of faith in the Christian context is usually commenced with "I believe", so you're an excellent Christian.

As evidence, this sucks royally. With the same litmus test, Libertine's complete absence of any paranormal experience should be as valid, and it should be JUST AS VALID a claim that there IS NO GOD. If YOUR personal experience is some kind of evidence, his should be as well. Problem is, in the absence of any tangible proof, IT CAN NOT BE PROVEN whether there IS a God, and that Libertine, having been forsaken by the Holy Spirit, is HELLBOUND, or that you are a delusional lunatic.

Nobody is discounting your faith. All that we are saying is this. YOU CANNOT PROVE THERE IS A GOD.

As a result, you cannot argue that others SHOULD follow your God or that God's Laws should be public policy. You are free, however, to engage in whatever personal faith you have obtained and derive whatever you wish from it.

If you cannot understand debate, then you should have simply at the beginning of this thread say "it's not provable - but it is what I believe. So I will simply believe, and you are welcome to do what you wish."

 

Strange how a man will come here everyday and attack the Bible, but give him an opportunity to debate it, and he will refuse to do so. It appears his Demons fear the Bible so much, that they refuse to let him debate it. That shows the power of God, and His Word. You wanted objective evidence, well your actions have become that evidence. It's the existance of God, and His Word, that the Demons fear. They speak great and evil words against the Lord of Lords daily, but shine the light of Scripture on them, and they simply run away. THANK YOU JESUS, AMEN

 

Now faith is the substance (assurance) of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. Although the proof of God's existence can only be revealed to one on a personal individual basis, does not render faith as simply a figment of ones imagination or a simple matter of mental intellect. With a believing heart, like that of a child, without all the intellectual baggage..one can step in through The Door that Christ is, and come to know of a truth for oneself. Faith than becomes a knowing of an inward spiritual nature. If God Himself (All-Being in the Highest sense) were to show himself as such, do you have any idea what your asking for? Obliteration my friend. Hence Revelations points out the running to the rocks and caves of the earth to hide themselves from his presence. It has nothing really to do with masocistic God as some prefer..this is exactly why he hasn't revealed himself as yet.


When the time comes for the light to get brighter and the darkness darker..shall the coming of the Son of Man appear as a quickening in consciousness. The unprepared as well as the prepare will veiw this day from two very different perspectives. The very attitudes of this day, ..fierce, heady, high-minded, lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God..etc. are all prophetic passages that mankind will go through..til that Day, when days shall be no more. Its the mercy of God that waits for you..us..to learn love, and that, of the Highest Form. meta

 

RE: Strange how a man will come here everyday and attack the Bible,

Of course, he can attack the Bible. That's something tangible.

RE: but give him an opportunity to debate it, and he will refuse to do so.

Actually, it's been you refusing to debate....

RE: It appears his Demons fear the Bible so much, that they refuse to let him debate it.

Huh?

RE: That shows the power of God, and His Word. You wanted objective evidence, well your actions have become that evidence. It's the existance of God, and His Word, that the Demons fear.

If the Bible is God's Word then God is a Liar.

RE: They speak great and evil words against the Lord of Lords daily, but shine the light of Scripture on them, and they simply run away. THANK YOU JESUS, AMEN

Interesting how you would turn Libertine's frustration at your lack of intellectual capacity to him being a demon afraid of some fairy tales written two thousand years ago. Are you sure those voices of yours aren't something that can be easily fixed with some Lithium?

 

neometa: without any proof of this, your words are nothing more than opinion.

 

I've got all the proof I need. How about you?

 

I said I wouldn't do it. But, I lied.

I am responding to Campbell's comments here:

HOW LAME.

No one but YOU believes that I "ran away". They all see the bullshit you were trying to pull here.

So, this debate ended on ONE QUESTION. That's the quickest victory I've ever had in a debate.

Too bad it took almost 500 posts to determine that.

 

RE: I've got all the proof I need. How about you?

Then share it, would you? Christians would LOVE to find tangible proof that would let them make their beliefs the state religion.

 

If the Bible was just a Book of fairy tales they would not be finding the coral incrusted Egyptain Army at the bottom of the Red Sea. With a mountain of evidence to support the Bible. The first question of the debate was for me to answer, why do I believe in God. And then I was barred from answering that question.

 

RE: If the Bible was just a Book of fairy tales they would not be finding the coral incrusted Egyptain Army at the bottom of the Red Sea.

Where/when did they do this?

RE: With a mountain of evidence to support the Bible.

Proof of one part does not prove the whole. I can write a book that says 2+2=4, and we're all made out of cheese. 2+2=4 and therefore WE AWL MADE OUT OF CHEESE HALLELUJAH! PRAISE HIM! PRAISE HIM! 2+2=4! Deny that! Only your ungodliness and sin makes you refuse to admit YOUR CHEESY NATURE!

RE: The first question of the debate was for me to answer, why do I believe in God. And then I was barred from answering that question.

You weren't "barred" from answering that question. You just decided to change the nature of the question.

We could care less about how you were a sickly child and then one day a vision came to you that God is real. How do you know that vision wasn't Allah? Vishnu? This is what I'm trying to say. The Muslim would say that that is Allah trying to reach you to become Muslim. The Hindu, same but with Krsna or whatever. The question was, what tangible proof do you have that a God exists?

If your answer is "I choose to believe in the absence of evidence", then accept that it isn't really an answer.