CAMPBELL34 VS. LIBERTINE :The War To Settle The Score...

I have an intuitive sense that there is, ultimately, no beginning to the existence of consciousness but that there are "rough points" of distinct change. And that consciousness is not only the result of the organization of matter at the level that we are presently capable of defining it in terms "conglomerate organization of elementary particles" but also a result of qualities inherent in elementary particles.



[sorry I am so slow]
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I see it as an evolutionary part of life. I think that everything (all matter) has a degree of life in it, even if it is mere bacteria, mere cells, etc. But, then we would have to ask "What is life?"

Obviously, cell life, plant life, and animal life are all quite different. But, that's a different topic altogether.

 

These are good questions, "what is the definition of life," "what is definition of consciousness" and "what is the relationship between a lifeform and consciousnes"?



Wait for a moment.


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Lib. I'm going to be awhile here..

 

I DID NOT ALTAR ANYTHING, I repeated Hikaru statement, Biblically correct or not. And pointed out that in the New Testament, that it states that one day with the Lord is a 1,000 years, and a thousand years is as one day.

 

May I share my views, though this question is not meant for me?

 

Libertine,

Dave gone wild, here it is; radical "freeform" preliminary 'take' on these questions:

There are particular distinct indications that an entity is a lifeform, a listing of some of these might look like (1) the ability to replicate (2) an orderly and coherent conglomeration of matter resulting from an evolution of lifeforms or of pre-lifeform matter, (3) a lifespan (4) distinct and ordered patterns of energy exchange with the environment during the lifespan of the entity that facilitates the replication and maintenance of that entity. And in this attempt at a broad definition the possible radical step of adding (5) implied awareness even to the most primitive lifeforms that lack a nervous system, an example being intercellular communication. Creating a broad defintion of consciousness I will attempt to define consciousness as awareness or perception with an associated implied self-awareness and with a complex and broad spectrum of distinct modes of awareness or perception among lifeforms. And a general defintion of the relationship between a lifeform and consciousness results from the above defintions. Obviously a number of aspects of these definitions have not yet been tested.

I can hear you now Libertine: OK, neet, now what ? I'll have to think about that lest you stoke me onward first; an objection would be useful at this point.


David


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Yes, Hikaru. Please do.

 

You have called the Bible idiotic, yet I have stated that they have found the Red Sea crossing site. They have found Mount Sinia with the burnt top. They found the 12 colums that represent the 12 tribes of Israel. They found the stone altar at the base of Mount Sinia, where they worshiped the Golden Calf. They found the ash pits where the Children of Israel did the burnt offerings. They found the boundry markers that surround the mountain. They found the 30 foot split rock of Horeb, where Moses struck the rock and water flowed out for the Children of Israel. They discovered the cave of Josha near the top of the mountain. What these stories prove, is that those who wrote the Bible were telling the truth. Now, why don't you prove me wrong, prove that all this evidence is false. Or perhaps you can't, maybe all you really know how to do, is to shoot your mouth off, and call me a sick individual. Maybe that's all you know how to do in your life. Yea, that's a way to show everyone how smart you are, just call me sick. Your responces are so infomative. Now prove to everyone here, that everything I have just stated is untrue. You don't even have to do any research, just call me a goof, don't even think about what I have said, just call me a goof. That should convince everyone.

 

All those things you mention were things made/done by man, discovered by man..

When you find two stone tablets that are inscribed by God himself.....the only actual physical evidence of god's interacting with man.....then we'll talk reality.....unfortuneatly, they were "lost" weren't they....convenient methinks.....

 

I am a thesist and I support theism but Cambell please, give the man a rational discussion, saying God speaks to me is not a rational way of proving his existance. This debate is not beneficial at all, give him something to dazzle about concering anthropic tunings, vera causas and/or a philosophical concorde/conflict approach.

 

From my awareness, the Chirstain Bible contains ancient sacred texts, rather translations of ancient sacred texts, that have historical and archaeological significance from a number of perspecitives including, certainly in some cases, literal interpretation of the content. These are wonderful documents however we, the human race, should be cautious not to cause destruction or bad things to happen in our world because of beliefs related to or connected with these documents.



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Question: "What qualities in matter would you speculate are responsible for consciousness"

The same quality in matter that is responsible for change in sensation: existance.

Matter needs no special quality other than some method of arrangement that is capable of perceiving the environment, processing the related information, and reacting to that information, in order to form consciousness and sentience.

Consciousness is just a fancy word for "awareness." In that sense ... even simple lifeless robots have consciousness. However, they do not have sentience (which is self-awareness), which is another topic. Modern robots are incapable of realizing their self-image from data that reflects their physical bodies.

Question: "at what point of "reduction," if any, do these qualities become nonsignificant "

I'm not sure what you mean. Can you clarify reduction?

 

You campbell34 are so outrageously deceiptful! To quote you ~

Genesis 3:3 says nothing like your lying manipulation, as I have already pointed out.

 

Also ...

I propose a debate between Libertine and cabdirazzaq. I have often debated with cab, and he has shown himself worthy of debate material.

 

Give the man a break, it was not an intentional manipulation, nor was it a very significant change. If he wanted to be very literal, he'd have quoted the verse instead.

 

Hikaru,

Yes, Hikaru I believe that I agree with what you are saying.

I wrote,

and I am moving, in this argument, toward what you have addressed with at least one exception. We seem to have an intuitve understanding that the response of matter to stimuli has a basic quality akin to awareness that we are directly aware of in oursleves and can identify with in other lifeforms; you use the example of a "robot," however, clearly in this context, we could use an atom or a rock as examples as well. I may veer from agreement with you in that I am proposing that all awareness has "a level" of implied self-awareness involved.


You write,

By "reduction" I am referring to as we "take apart matter" and we have now both addressed this; you with the "robot" analogy/example. But to increase clarity and to add a "twist" I will ask the following questions, the answer to the which you will hopefully provide and I sense that I can forecast the answer to the first question accurately because of our interaction thus far:

If there were a machine that would read the "'exact' physical structure" of your body, exact being to the level of the individual atoms (ie no subatomic information beyond, say, agreement in number of protons and neutrons in the nucleus and electrons in the shells). And this machine, once the reading of your physical structure is complete, creates a duplicate, a copy, of your physical structure, the duplicate having all memories intact as we would 'physically' define them to the level of the aforementioned individual atoms without going into detail beyond these discrete atoms, and then the machine destroys the original. Would you still be alive (as we typically define it) ? And, secondly, in loose freeform response, if the "original" had not been destroyed and could meet and interact with the duplicate what are some of the key occurrences that you believe might happen ?


David


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Well if you had read his post, the post that I was responding to. He stated, that God said that in the day Adam an Eve ate of the apple they would die. Thats what he said, and I repeated what he stated. As I have stated in my last post, reguardless if the statement was right or wrong, the point I was making was, Gods days are a 1,000 years long. If you have a problem with the way He quotes Scripture, take it up with Him. I did not even look at the verse, I just responded to his comment.

 

Did man burn the Top of Mount Sinia which is made of granit, charcoal black?
The granit was burned with such intense heat, that the rocks break apart in your hands when you pick them up. And this is the only mountain on earth that has a burnt top. The Bible stated that when God desended on the Mountain, He was like a furnance of fire. I don't think it matters what they find, I believe some people will deny God all the way till death. Not because there is not enought evidence, but because they don't want God in their life. Those who love God will seek Him out. Those who want nothing to do with Him, will only find new ways to deny Him.

 

I'm not trying to prove or deny him....i don't have a vested interest in either...what I am saying, is that the one piece of physical evidence, the two stone tablets that would leave no scientific/philosophical/theoloigical doubt that god existed...were lost

As for the top of Mt Sinai.....anyone with half a brain can think of a dozen scenarios, mostly natural, why they were exposed to extreme heat..although i've never bothered researching it persoanally, it still shows no evidence of God.

Now be a good fellow, go buy a raggy hat and a bullwhip.....and go do an Indiana Jones, the Ark is out there, somewhere......or is it?