Bush doing a good Job

Discussion in 'America Attacks!' started by meglomaniac, Jun 4, 2004.

  1. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    Maybe because all (if not, most) of the terrorists who hate America are middle Eastern?

    I don't think the USSR ever bombed any US embasies, they never beheaded an American soldier on tape and sent it over here to be seen by millions, and they never blew up the World Trade Center. Maybe terrorists really do exist, and maybe they really do want to kill Americans, and maybe we should be doing what we can to stop them.
     
  2. LuciferSam

    LuciferSam Member

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    I also believe the Bush administration is using the Middle East and the spectre of terrorism to sway the American public. It's what the Nazis used to take power in Germany, and it's what both the US and the USSR did in the Cold War - create a big, bad bogeyman. If terrorism hadn't reared its ugly head lately, we'd have found some other nastie to portray as the enemy of the world and all that's good and American. Back in the Cold War days, almost everybody was either on the American-backed capitalist side or the Soviet side. Those governments on the former side used to look to us as their protector, hence those alliances such as NATO, alliances in which we were very much the Boss. Now that the nasty evil empire has collapsed, those Cold War allies (such as Western Europe) no longer feel the necessity to be so close to America if they don't wish to, and now have their own outspoken opinions, as was highlighted by the arguments over whether Iraq should be invaded or not.

    Even though I'm not so overly cynical that I don't think the American government would like to get rid of terrorism if it could, or at least curb the movement, I do think that the government finds terrorism to be a very useful propaganda tool for its own agenda.
     
  3. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    Jews never bombed any German embassies or killed a few thousand Germans just for being Protestant did they? No one is going to deny the propoganda wars that went on during the Cold War, but this is a little different because terrorists actually kill people, they actually destroyed the WTC, they really want to kill us for being Christian, and they really destroyed a subway in Madrid to sway the elections (which worked out well for Al-Qaida I might add). The difference between the scapegoats back then and the terrorists now is that terrorists are a real threat, and they really do want us all dead.

    That's your opinion, not fact.

    Good. Everyone should voice their own opinions, its too bad Europeans didn't speak up sooner, or else some of the mess that went along with Cold War could have been avoided.

    Again, that's your opinion. For 13 years after the war ended, the U.S. government didn't have a "boogey man" to use to scare people, and things went great. I'm sure they could have found something to use if they really wanted to (people can be very stupid in large numners after all, especially Americans), but they didn't.
     
  4. LuciferSam

    LuciferSam Member

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    I wholeheartedly agree, but I doubt many people in our government do. They'd like to see Europe shut up and fall back into yes-man status. Hence, for example, alot of this petty anti-French sentiment that they've been promoting.

    Well, we did have some little bogeys... Saddam... Milosevic ... I think China was on its way to becoming one, as the logical New Big Red Bully of the East. I'm not saying Saddam or Milosevic were wrongfully labelled as bad people, but we also puffed their demonic images up quite a bit. We just never had any real nasties to captivate people's attention until al-Qaeda came along, and not until the 9/11 tragedy.
     
  5. Angel_Headed_Hipster

    Angel_Headed_Hipster Senior Member

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    If Iraq was a big superpower, and America was a small undeveloped country, and Iraq did something like we did to Iran (take out their elected leader and put in Shah, which was a big mistake) and put their own leader there to rule over us, and we couldn't choose our own leader like every country should be able to, there would be people here running over the Iraq Embassy and taking hostages. American can afford to negotiate with other countries because they are rich and respected (Mostly out of fear) by other big time countries who have a big say in what goes on in the world. These people, these terrorists, are brought up in a place that is so poor, and a place where NOBODY can express their views and be publisized, so they are brought up to think the only way to make change is through terrorism, it is horrible, yes, but instead of waging war on these people, we need to find out why this is happening and stop it, stop these children from growing up being told to murder us because of what we did to them in the past. Hopefully when my generation becomes the politicians, they turn to Middle eastern countries, plead them to forget our pasts, and move on and be friends.

    Peace and Love,
    Dan
     
  6. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Max

    What this comes down to is my opinion against yours.

    That is fine but why bring it up? I hope this isn’t to say that therefore we should just accept each other’s viewpoints at this time? The thing is that people hold opinions but that is not to say that those opinions are not based on unfounded prejudice rather than rational thought. A racist might hold the belief that blacks or Jews are inferior or a member of the flat earth society might have an opinion on the earth’s shape, that is their opinion but that doesn’t mean I would accept them. Now in no way is your opinion in this matter as extreme or as silly but I always think that a political viewpoint based not on rationality and compassion but prejudice can be dangerous, since it can soon mutate into intolerance. At this point in this debate I’m unsure if you base your views on compassionate rationality or prejudice which leads me to your next point.

    I think that Soviet Russia was an evil (yes, evil) that had to be stopped from spreading, which was one of thier main goals. You don't feel the same way.

    Your use of the word ‘evil’ in fact your emphasise on the word gives me concern. To me ‘evil’ has far too many religious connections and is so often a sign of someone who thinks in absolutes. A country is made up of people and a nation or empire is often an abstract concept. So if the Soviet Russia was ‘evil’ is the present non-Soviet Russia still ‘evil’ or have the Russian through the embracement of a capitalist system become ‘good’? Are the people living under a vile regime therefore also vile?

    To me Stalin was a brutal dictator and the oligarchy that ran the Russian state was not my model of a decent government, but while I disliked the government I held no great animosity toward the Russian people. I feel sorry for anyone that has to survive under brutal regimes be they of the left or right. I also feel sorry for those people living under a brutal regime that is being supported in power due to the power politics of others. Which leads me to your next point.

    Yes, alternatives could have been found that didn't involve killing innocent people, and they should have been, but it's not as if the U.S. just said "oh fuck 'em, lets go kill us some commies. YEEEE-HAWWWW!" No. When you're way of life is being threatened by an enemy that has nukes which could destroy the entire world in less than a week (and has proven that they will resort to such methods as the Soviets used on their own people, much less their enemies), you don't tend to think of the big picture or the general good.

    Again your words are evocative but what do they mean in this context? Talk of the end of the American way of life, the merciless enemy that would destroy the world, the great commie threat.

    The thing was that US involvement did not always have much to do with any real threat from the Soviets. For example Iran and Guatemala which seem to have had little to do with the saving of the American way of life but a lot to do with American Company profits. Other times the aggressive posturing and attitude of US policy often caused individuals and governments to look to the USSR for assistance, which many see as the root cause of the Cuban missile crisis.



    (As to the Cuban missile crisis the US and Americans though that putting missiles that close to the US border was provocative but saw the deployment of missiles right on the Russian border as perfectly alright. As it was the agreement to get the USSR missiles out of Cuba got what the Russians wanted the withdrawal of US missiles from the Turkish border.)

    Don't get me wrong, I don't support what we did to with the Contras, Saddam, Osama, or any of it, but in retrospect it was probably necessary. Not right, not good, not worth condoning, but necessary.

    You seem ambiguous with your conclusion, was it necessary or probably necessary? This is the problem as I see it with your argument you seem so sure of you overview but so unclear in your detail. It is not a matter, it seems, of you seeing if these actions were actually necessary but of hoping that they were. You can see that they caused great pain and you don’t want to believe (not one of us does) that our country caused totally unnecessary pain that you have decided that it must have been done out of necessity. It had to because the US was defending the world from ‘evil’, it had to be because the US was defending ‘the American way of life’, US governments must have done these things because it and the American people didn’t have time to think?

    **

    What is the ‘American way of life"?



     
  7. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    First off, thank you Professor Balbus for that erm....intersting look into my post. I'll have to make my future arguments a little clearer.

    What I mean by that is, we could go on for pages and pages debating this issue, but more than likely neither of us are going to walk away with any real changes of mind than we had when we started. There is no clear cut "right" or "wrong."

    I'll clarify: Stalin and his successors, the oligarchy who ran Soviet Russia, who filled mass graves, labor camps, and insane asylums with political dissidents were bad, wrong, maleficent, whatever word you want to use besides 'evil', which you seem to have a problem with (although none of those carry enough negative denotation). What they were doing (trying to spread commusinsm throughout the world) had to be stopped. The type of government they ran, the methods they used, and the lengths they were willing to go to keep themselves in power makes them 'evil' to me. If we were living in Soviet Russia right now, it would be like something out of Orwell. That's just how people lived. That, to me, had to be stopped.

    Well yeah. Living under the censorship, fear, propoganda, and all the other great stuff that went on in Soviet Russia isn't my idea of a good time. What was it like living in East Germany or Hungary all the years during the Cold War? That's how it would be like now if we were living under Soviet rule.

    True. The U.S. government did a lot of bad shit under the excuse of rooting out communism, no getting around that.

    Thanks for the psychoanalysis. I'll try not to type faster than I think from here on out. There was a lot of pain and suffering caused by the U.S. during the Cold War, no question about that, but I do think that it was necessary. Communism in and of itself is no problem. In fact, I would like a few more socialist reforms here in the U.S. But when you have people like Stalin running countries, it dosen't matter what type of government they have, its ideaology has to be stopped. The idea of communism is good, but it has been proven that it can't work without resorting to extreme authoritarian measures. Those are what had to be stopped from spreading.

    Bad wording on my part. The American way of life is actually the same as the British, Canadian, Australian, and any other counrtry with freedom of speech and expressions' way of life. It's the same thing, but since I'm American I call it my way of life. I won't call it that anymore if it bothers you though.
     
  8. mmmnuggets

    mmmnuggets Member

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    Bush is what your name means Megalomaniac...wtf is going on with these forums?
     
  9. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Max

    I didn’t think that there is a clear cut "right" or "wrong." What I was trying to understand was your basis for your viewpoint. You see to me it seems contradictory.
    You admit that

    The U.S. government did a lot of bad shit under the excuse of rooting out communism

    In other words the governments motivation were not about stopping the spread of ‘evil soviet communism’ but you still believe that those actions were excusable as necessary to stop the spread of ‘evil soviet communism’.

    This seems exceptionally if not excessively kind toward those administrations.

    At first I thought you were one more of those Americans that had fallen for the ‘official’ version of history that those actions were about stopping the spread of ‘evil soviet communism’. Doesn’t falling for the propaganda while actually knowing it was propaganda seem a little bit odd to you?

    **

    The thing is are you saying that the ‘American way of life’ is only about freedom of speech and expression and are you saying that only ‘commies’ are guilty of taking away freedom of speech and expression?



     
  10. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    It's not exactly propoganda. Sugar coated history, okay, but not propoganda. I admit that the U.S. made mistakes during the Cold War, but our efforts really did damage the Soviet Union. Like I said, we did a lot of bad shit in the name of rooting out communism, but in the process a lot of communism was rooted out. People like Stalin can't be allowed to have their way when they control something as powerful as the USSR was, and we did what was necessary (and more unfortunately) to stop it.

     
  11. Balbus

    Balbus Senior Member

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    Max

    I said before that I was trying to understand what was the basis for your viewpoint because to me it seemed contradictory even irrational.

    Like I said, we did a lot of bad shit in the name of rooting out communism, but in the process a lot of communism was rooted out.

    In other words even when the actions of the US governments were NOT motivated in stopping the spread of ‘evil soviet communism’ (only in its name) and those actions were clearly ‘bad shit’ you still believe that those actions were excusable as necessary to stop the spread of ‘evil soviet communism’.

    I have to ask again why since this doesn’t seem logical let alone justifiable?

    The doctrine that you seem to be upholding is ‘the ends justify the means’ well I think that a short sighted solution when the means is very liable to have unhealthy repercussions and there are viable alternatives that are better for the people involved. What is worse here is that you are upholding this doctrine even when the actions (the means) have very little to do with the stated objectives (the ends).

    **

    To me the people of a democratic and free state are the guardians of their country’s and governments soul. (And even under tyranny there are many who fight to bring about the same and often pay a heavier price.) That is in other words if they have a belief in their ideals then they should try and make sure that their government upholds those ideals.

    It seems to me that many Americans see the US as a bastion of certain values, of liberty, justice and democracy, as the upholder of freedom of speech and expression. Many American politicians and ordinary citizens talk openly of these things. They often cite or quote with pride the noble words of their country’s constitution or bill of rights.

    So are people not then to expect that the policies and actions of the US government will reflect those much vaulted values. However it is at that point that many people who don’t blindly accept the "sugar coated" version of history that the US would like them to accept feel like they have entered the twilight zone.

    Or should I say something out of Orwell? To defend Freedom, freedom can be suppressed, gross injustices need to be committed to defend Justice and democracy is praised if it gives the result the defenders of Democracy desire. (War is Peace and the war to stop terror must use terror as a weapon)

    The thing is that people and politicians in the US continue to boast of the ideals while their government is clearly so often involved in doing something else. Why?

    Some see hypocrisy other self-delusion, I wonder if it has anything to do with the absolutist mindset of so much American thought.

    Many Americans as I have commented have absolutist opinions, for them every argument come down to a simplistic Either / or, right / wrong, good / bad, their world consists of clear definitions of black and white with very little or even no shade.

    Now think about that and what that means when they think about their country, would they think it good or bad? Well while they may see some things as right and others as wrong on the surface the break down of the equation come eventually down to that absolutist and simplistic good or bad.

    This I think has lead to a such people having a deep-seated belief that the US is a force for good and even the belief among some that it has a ‘Manifest destiny’ which means it acts as an agent for good.

    This can lead to a belief that even if an American government does ‘bad’ it only does it for ‘good’ reasons or as you put it

    "we did a lot of bad shit in the name of rooting out communism, but in the process a lot of communism was rooted out"

    (as some of this is general comment I’ll start another thread with it)

     
  12. fylthevoyd

    fylthevoyd Super Moderator

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    Ok here goes,since has become a stagnant and head-butting dead thread.I am going to state my opinion in all of this,because you ALL are over looking the most important aspect of this anti-dubya shit.I am going to say this first,so as not to personally offend any one,but with the except of one or two of you.You are all abunch of goddam kids,which is something that I was impressed with.You are very knowledgeable in supporting your beliefs.I am not going to re-hash what has been said,concerning the bullshit war.But I was around and witnessed most of the shit you all spoke of,all of which set the stage for the present day situation that is going on over in the desert.The US has not learned anything over all these years,war is still politically motivated,regardless of who it is waged against and for whatever reasons.The spin-doctors write the neccessary scripts in order to gain the support of the people.There-in is where the problem lies,and this is the focus that you all are failing to acknowledge.While you,and the rest of the country,are argueing over who is right or wrong.Our individual rights and liberties are slowly being taken away from the people.That is the governments' plan,is to cloud the truth and distract the people while the built in safe guards are eradicated,so that the theiving bastards in Washington continue their fat-cat existence at our expense.

    Dubya has instilled sanctions that no one is paying any attention to because they are to busy debating whether the war is right or wrong.The Patriot Act,in the name of"homeland security"has whittled the Bill of Rights down to nothing.It has also given the law enforcement agencies the power to fuck each and every one of us with out any reason what so ever other than they might be a "terrorist".Detaining anybody for as long as they want.This country has people living in the streets,kids dying of starvation,and a very high percentage of the population that cannot afford to go to a doctor.The prison system is over crowded with pot smokers,so they release the "baby-rapers" back to the streets to recommitt their sick crimes.Now I ask you,who in the fuck are the real terrorist? If we sit back and argue about shit that we have no control over,and pay no attention to what is happening all around us.Then the true terrorists fucking win.I myself,am sick and tired of having that red,white ,and blue prick shoved up my ass day in and day out.I work my ass off every day,and don't have a fucking thing to show for it.If I get sick or hurt and cannot work,then Iam fucked.Just like the rest of you.
    I hope like hell that every body who was so out spoken over weather they liked or disliked that beady eyed little bastard,dubya,is a registered voter.If you don't use your right to vote,then you have no right to bitch.
    Exert that energy that you are using,over shit that you cannot change,to the war on the homefront,which effects each and every one of us every fucking day.Open your eyes to what is happening around you,before it is too fucking late.Our government is the enemy,and we are at war.This is a truth that you cannot ignore,and if the people of this country keep acting like stinking-assed sheep.It is only a matter of time before they are hualed off to the slaughter.
    There is some food for thought for you younger people,the future is in your hands basically,think about it.
     
  13. LickHERish

    LickHERish Senior Member

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    And who precisely are you referring to as children? I think youll find many equally travelled and experienced adults on this forum who have been making every attempt to outline those very points in the face of the all too indoctrinated mantras of "un American", "lover of terrorists", etc..

    Indeed this war is only one further example of the ease with which jingoistic sentiments are inflamed and rational examination of historically linked agendas of corporate hegemony are cast aside in order to deaden all public discourse. Sadly, those of us who have quite significant experience to bring to bear on the matter are simply decried as being arrogant by those who would rather rest smugly in hyper-nationalistic bravado over "our liberty", "our strength", "our way of life", blah blah.

    Although much of what you have said above echoes the warnings i have been flamed for making, I would caution further that the Democrats are not truly a progressive alternative and that as much as Bush must be gotten rid of for the excessive elitest self interest he represents, Kerry wont be making any significant changes should he win.

    Somewhere down the road, our increasingly polarised empire is going to split and likely lead to another civil war or at least a revolution of some fashion. Perhaps then and only then will the majority realise just how cunning and calculating the decades upon decades of incremental programming and propagandising by the establishment has truly been in denying the average citizen a truly informed perpsective, inside the US. Those of us who have spent time abroad have an advantage of seeing the broader gloabl causations and implications of our national and foreign policies. But don't try to tell that to too many back home lest you be lambasted as a conspiracy theorist or, heaven forbid, a liberal commie (or some equally creative label).
     
  14. fylthevoyd

    fylthevoyd Super Moderator

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    LickHERish;you didn't read close enough the beginning of my post.I said with the exception of a couple of people,and I did not refer to them as kids in a derogatory manner.I also said for their ages,I was impressed at their knowledge of world matters for their age. You,being 39,would not have been included in a generalization title of "kids".So chill out.
     
  15. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    I don'k know whether that was a compliment or an insult (as I assume that I'm in that category of "kids"), but whatever......

    Sure, the gov't sucks. I wouldn't go as far as to say that the PAtriot Act is raping the Bill of Rights or that people are going to be sent to the slaughter, but in a few years aith a few more Bush's, who knows? But what's the solution? I agree with most of what you said, but I didn't see any solution besides "you kids gotta go stick it to the man." Revolution? No thanks. It would never work in our society.

    The only solution I can come up with is to educate the dumb-as-bricks, bloated ignorant mass known as the American people. Ger them off their spoon fed laze reality TV loving asses and make them think. But how? Beats me. The media is indoctrinating the future as we speak. THAT is the real problem. The dumbing-down of America is the real problem. If not for that, out politicians wouldn't be getting away with all the shit they pull.
     
  16. FreakyJoeMan

    FreakyJoeMan 100% Batshit Insane

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    But that's the main thing. This anti intellectualism/education movement we have going on now. If you have more than a highschool education, yer reviled as thinkin yer "smarter than everyone else". It's a source of pride nowadays to be uneducated. "I don't need no booklearnin'" And that's the main problem with this country. Without the embracement of the learning, knowladge gaining process, this country will continue to go down the drain.
     
  17. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    And at the same time, it will give those with higher education and intelligence (like the politicians who run this country) a much easier time doing what they do best - fuck the people.
     
  18. LuciferSam

    LuciferSam Member

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    I agree with Max and FreakyJoe.

    I think that the anti-education attitude is exactly what Bush is taking advantage of, using his hick persona. Part of it is quite likely enough that Bush's intelligence isn't that remarkable, but in a way it's part of his craft, in my opinion. It's a new way of demagoguery. Bush's image of a doddering, aw-shuckin' folksy hick appeals to many simple folk who go "Heyy... now thurr's an honest, down-to-earth average joe feller that's jes' like me..."
     
  19. Moonjava

    Moonjava Senior Member

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    I think Bush is doing a damn good job. Everyone's mad just because he has the balls to do something about things that are not right. I don't know about you guys, but I'd much rather be fighting on their soil, not ours. How can we blame Bush and only Bush for the war? I mean, the CIA investigated the situation and they said there was evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, plus reasons to believe they could use chemical warfare. So how is it Bush's fault that other people investigated wrongly before he was ever elected into office? I think Bush made a smart choice by going to war. If you think the way Sadaam was torturing the Iraqi people was right, then what kind of a peace promoter are you? It was a second holocaust in the making. I mean, yes it does suck that people are dying, but if it weren't for people dying in the past for this country, you probably wouldn't be enjoying freedoms that you take for granted today (such as typing freely on this very forum). Another thing is that John Kerry is in the US Senate, and he voted to go to war, NOT AGAINST IT. Then, after voting to go to war, he votes not to support our troops while they're in Iraq. Isn't that nice of him? To help send our troops out, but then vote not to support them while they're over there risking their lives? Yeah, he changed his mind... how convenient. Just to gain the votes of people against the war, not because he has a genuinely kind heart. Also, Kerry has a history of not showing up to meetings and such. Yeah, just the kind of dude I want in office... someone who can't do their ......job. But he'd damn sure show up for any kind of gay marriage act to be passed. I'm not trying to offend anyone here, it is just my personal opinion that a marriage should be defined as a MAN and a WOMAN. It's been that way forever (probably for a good reason), so why all the sudden is it okay for same sex couples to get married? If you wanna be gay, be gay. But don't corrupt marriage for the rest of us. I even have gay and lesbian friends who feel this way, just so you know I'm not prejudice. One more thing, Kerry is for abortion and I don't believe in that personally. I think there is a war going on in the spiritual realm. Libleral or not, I hope you choose the right candidate. Bush is doing great!
     
  20. MaxPower

    MaxPower Kicker Of Asses

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    That's EXACTLY the card they played in the 2000 elections if you remember back. Al Gore was, well.....Al Gore. A dull, lifeless, uninteresting "politician-type." Sort of like John Kerry but not as ugly. Bush, on the other hand, was a drinking, smoking, toking averaje Joe fratboy who "the people" could associate with.
     

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