buddhism and marijuana

If you can't be bothered just say so, but if you honestly cant remember or even scroll back, then i'll tell you.

Education, open-minded discussion and meditation, i asked if you considered them intoxicants and you asked "are those things you consume?".

To be honest re-iterating myself does take the fun out of it, i think i have now lost interest, ill see how i feel tomorrow.

 

Maybe I couldnt find those things because I never said I didnt consume them...
I dont see them as things I consume but that I apply....

I know there is contradiction in my posts, because the moment I read this my first thought was on how marihuana has been an intoxicant to me in the past...it not started being that way, is not now... but somwhere in the middle it was very much and not for what it was but for the why...
and the more I thought on the subject the more I realized of the many things that have been intoxicants.. people, places, ideas and is all because of the mindset you have at the moment and how you let things affect you and anything that becomes unbalanced inmediately becomes an intoxicant

 

Perhaps I am misguided, but it seems to me that when one says to avoid substances that cause loss of mindfulness, I'm thinking that can only mean abusing those substances. Some of those "drugs" seem to increase people's mindfulness and open their eyes to more advanced thought. Yes, some do partake in such activities far to often, and fall off track, so to say, but why would a buddhist be against anything that can aid someone in their search for completeness? I think the big concern would lie within self control.

 

It is true that if you were able to use marijuana with out losing mindfulness and reach nirvana then it wouldn't be a hinderance, but having said all that what would be the point?

 

Theres a couple way to look at it from this point, well, endless ways, but heres a couple.

1. Freedom of choice. It can be argued that it is of no more harm than an internet / forum addiction.

2. To attain peace. It's hard to argue that marijuana makes for peacefulness, and openmindness, it could also be referred to as a crutch, but if the user doesn't manage to get into a rut, and it's use allows them to see things and consider things without a harsh prerequisite for acceptance, why make such judgements against them?

I'm not saying that all people should, or that it is the definite answer for anything, but I think a lot of people have closed their minds to something under the misled messages of our governments and alternate religions.

2500 years ago when Buddhism was founded, do you suppose todays drugs were around and considered drugs in that time? We can at times place harsh judgements toward certain things, especially when they are listed as "drugs", thinking on that, why doesn't anbody consider the local coffee shop a drugstore, have we forgot what label we placed on caffeine?

I appologise for the rant. I hold great interest in Buddhism, and would just like to make sure that I fully understand what it is that Buddhism truly means, and not necessarily revised versions to suit laws and acceptable practices.

 

Well i have to argue the first point, I don't know of any religion that supports addiction, Buddhists wouldn't argue an internet addiction is ok, because like all addiction it distracts from enlightenment.

I think you understand marijuana alot better then Buddhism, i myself would like to learn a alot more, i'm dissapointed that there arent more practicing Buddhists involved in this particular discussion.

 

Nirvana (Pali: Nibbana), is not a place to be reached, nor is it a goal one can set as an end. Nibbana is a result of liberation from greed (Pali: Lobha), ill-will (Pali: Dosa), and delusion (Pali: Moha).

Mindfulness is not just for the gross level of awareness much like one would be mindful of the road, signs, signals, pedestrians, other vehicles, etc. while one is driving an automobile. It is also mindful of ones intentions, mindful of ones speech, mindful of ones actions, mindful of the intention to speak, the intention to act, mindful of the beginning, the middle and the end of the thought to speak, mindful of the beginning, the middle and the end of the thought to perform an action.

When one is indulging in intoxicants, whether slightly mild to intense, one is indulging in the feelings of the senses, that is the sense of sight, sense of sound, sense of smell, sense of taste, sense of touch and sense of thought and the feelings associated with these senses.

According to Buddhist teachings, Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanasamyutta (Discourse on the Six Sense Base), Buddha teaches that these very senses (eye, nose, ear, tongue, body, and mind) are all impermanent, and what is impermanent is suffering, and what is suffering is non self, and what is non self should be seen as it really is and with wisdom. Also that the objects associated with the senses, forms with sight, sounds with the ear, odours with the nose, tastes with the tongue, tacticle with the body, and thoughts with the mind are also impermanent, and again are suffering, are non self and should be seen as it really is and with wisdom.

If there were no gratification with the eye, forms, the ear, sounds, the nose, odours, the tongue, tastes, the body, tactile feelings, the mind and thoughts then no one would become enamoured with them.

This particular nikaya also goes to say that whatever feelings arise as conditioned by the eye and forms, the nose and odours, the ear and sounds, the tongue and tastes, the body and tactiles, and the mind and thoughts, then they arise as a burning, that is burning with greed (lust, desire), ill-will (anger, hatred), and delusion (confusion, ignorance) ... "burning with birth, aging, and death; with sorrow, lamentation, pain, displeasure and despair."

So basically, it's not so much the drug or beverage that causes a lack of mindfulness, it's the indulgence in the feelings it causes or conditions as a result. One becomes more involved with the pleasure (greed) involved with intoxication. You can't really say that you don't enjoy the feelings you get from smoking marijuana, or from drinking alcohol, or from taking lsd, or mdma, or other forms of solid and liquid intoxicants. And if you could say that, then it is my honest opinion that you are using incorrect speech aimed at being deceptive. One also becomes involved in the ill-will when someone comes between them and their pleasure, and one also becomes involved in the delusion at believeing that one can indulge the senses in pleasure and attain to a state of freedom or liberation from greed, ill-will and delusion.

Anything that indulges the senses in feelings of pleasure, indulges the senses in feelings of hatred, indulges the senses in delusion, be it drugs, alcohol, tv, radio/music, internet, cell-phones, cameras, family, wife, husband, children, brothers, sisters, girlfriends, boyfriends, cars, work, money, movies, homes, land/property, art, poetry, sex, masturbation, etc ... anything ... will be a hinderance to any state of freedom, hence a hinderance to nibbana. Whenever one is under the control of their own greed, ill-will and delusion, one will never attain a state of liberation, one will never know with absolute certainty that one has been liberated, that birth is destroyed, that the holy life has been lived, that what had to be done has been done, and that there is no more for this state of being ... this is Nibbana (Sanskrit: Nirvana).

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darrelkitchen, first and foremost, thank you for re-entering this discussion.


"According to Buddhist teachings, Samyutta Nikaya, Salayatanasamyutta (Discourse on the Six Sense Base), Buddha teaches that these very senses (eye, nose, ear, tongue, body, and mind) are all impermanent, and what is impermanent is suffering, and what is suffering is non self, and what is non self should be seen as it really is and with wisdom. Also that the objects associated with the senses, forms with sight, sounds with the ear, odours with the nose, tastes with the tongue, tacticle with the body, and thoughts with the mind are also impermanent, and again are suffering, are non self and should be seen as it really is and with wisdom." -DK (darrelkitchen)

This is something that has always bothered me about Buddhism, the complete and utter rejection of the material world, as it is impermanent, it is the cause of suffering. Well Taoism (something i am learning about and may even follow) teaches us the only thing that doesn't change is change itself and that it is important for us to find a balance in appreciating the non-tangible as well as the tangible as beautiful as it is a manifestation of the Tao and a part of a perfect flow.


"So basically, it's not so much the drug or beverage that causes a lack of mindfulness, it's the indulgence in the feelings it causes or conditions as a result. One becomes more involved with the pleasure (greed) involved with intoxication. You can't really say that you don't enjoy the feelings you get from smoking marijuana,..." -DK

Yes, one must admit in cases of intoxicants such as marijuana the feeling certainly is pleasurable, having said that, in of itself this is not a bad thing, 'the result of liberation' (Nirvana) is often described as "blissful'. It is the attachment to this feeling which should equate with greed and when out of control this attachment is called addiction. I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that any pleasure derived from something impermanent (everything except that which it is manifested from) is associated with greed, yet if one is able to enjoy something in that moment and then move on without attachment, then i see no harm, infact i see it as beneficial to the individual.

 

Please allow me to offer my opinion on the first part first, then the second.

Trite and trivial as it may seem, "complete" and "utter" mean the same thing, but I understand what you are meaning, or stressing.

Buddhism does not require immediate rejection. If you are capable of this then so be it. If not, then there is a gradual process one must choose in order to come to this understanding. Buddhism is not about Buddhism. Buddhism is a lable attached to a process whereby one attains to wisdom to correctly view reality as it really is.

It's not the material world one rejects. It is the greed, ill-will and delusion one experiences on contact with an object of the six sense base. Rather it is the craving of feelings one experiences on contact with the object of the six sense base. Rather it is the clinging to feelings one experiences on contact with the object of the six sense base. Really those three statements mean the same thing. Why? Clinging is a conditioned result of craving. Craving is a conditioned result of feelings. Feelings are a conditioned result of contact. Contact is a conditioned result of having six base senses. The six base senses are a conditioned result of mental and physical formations/forms (name and form). Mental and physical formations are a conditioned result of consciousness. Consciousness is a conditioned result of volition (action, kamma/karma). And, volition is a conditioned result of ignorance.

Much like your statement in the second part, "... and when out of control this attachment is called addiction." This would be the same as saying that Addition is a conditioned result of attachment.

Feelings are of three types. Two of these are of two catagories. These types are greed (mental greed and physical greed), ill-will (mental ill-will and physical ill-will), and delusion. When the six base sense comes into contact with the object associated with that sense a sensation is produced at the moment of contact. We apply a feeling to this sensation. We either like it, don't like it, or are unsure whether we like it or not. "The suggestion is that deep in the minds of beings there is a greed or desire that manifests as an unquenchable thirst which is the principle condition for the arising of suffering." ... "Yet in a world where everything is always changing, in a world of shifting and unstable conditions, craving of whatever kind will never be able to hold on to the things it craves. This is the origin of suffering."[1] These things being feelings, according to the second noble truth.

Like I said earlier in this thread, the third noble truth is the desctruction of suffering, and the fourth noble truth is the path that leads to the destruction of suffering. If it was required for an immediate complete rejection there would be no path, and if there were, the path would most likely require immediate and complete adherence. Rather the path is a gradual process meant to guide one from one stage to another, starting with morality, moving to concentration, ending with wisdom ... to see things as they really are.

Even then, one doesn't reject the material world. One does not have feelings for it as being either pleasant, non-pleasant, or neither-pleasant-nor-non-pleasant. One just accepts the world, or reality as it is, and, to quote you, "move on."

Now on your second statement. Bliss in itself is an expression of feeling. It is not an expression of Nibbana (Sanskrit: Nirvana), and has never been described by Buddha as being blissful. Perhaps by others who did not, nor do not understand it as it is. Nibbana cannot be described using conventional language. By conventional language I mean sounds being produced by the voice, exiting the mouth in controlled sequences so as to produce utterances we recognize as words that describe our mental and physical perceptions. If you could describe Nibbana using conventional language, you would be describing Samsara and not Nibbana. In essence, you would be describing suffering.

Nibbana is an absence of greed, ill-will and delusion. It is an absence of death, birth, existence, clinging, craving, feelings, contact, the six senses, mental and physical formations, consciousness, volition and ignorance.

When you say "It is the attachment to this feeling which should equate with greed and when out of control this attachment is called addiction", the second noble truth means to illucidate that craving is a conditioned result of feelings and clinging is a conditioned result of craving. The third noble truth means to say that to end clinging one must end craving and to end craving one must end feelings. What this means is to put an end to greed, ill-will and delusion as these three things are feelings. Feelings are what we produce when we experience a sensation that is a result of contact between the six base and their associated objects. It can also be understood that Attachment is another word expression for Clinging.

And according to the teachings of Buddha, referring to the same sutta I mentioned in my last post, the very act of clinging is beyond addiction, it is like a fire which consumes, never being satisfied, never being quenched.

Eventually even adherence to rules and rituals, yes, including the precepts, will become a henderence and be regarded as clinging. One must then relenquish attachments to even the precepts. This does not mean that it will be okay to kill a living being, or to engage in incorrect speech, or to engage in sexual misconduct, or to take what is not given, or to take intoxicating substances. It simply means that the conditions, or motivations that might move a person to want to do these things have been, or should be rooted out.

The precepts, which are the beginning of morality, are aimed at restraining particularly damaging kinds of behavior; these provide the basis for the cultivatoin of meditation practices that bring one to direct experience of the subtle worlds of 'form' and 'the formless'. But eventually these (the precepts and desire for the form and formless worlds) must be relinquished for an end of the path to be fully realized.



This state of "bliss" or "blissfulness", which you refer to, known as rapture and pleasure born of various actions are conditions of various meditative states, or factors called Jhana. They are merely conditions of ones progress in meditation, or factors of concentration.

First Jhana: withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities. In this state there is rapture and pleasure born from withdrawl, accompanied by direct thought and evaluation. There is not one aspect of ones entire body that is unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of this withdrawl.


Second Jhana: stilling of directed thought and evaluation. In this state there is rapture and pleasure born from composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation. Ones very body is permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with rapture and pleasure born of composure.

Third Jhana: fading away of rapture, one remains in equanimity, mindful and alert, and physically sensitive to pleasure, that is pleasurable abiding. Ones body is permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with pleasure freed of rapture.

Fourth Jhana: abandoning of pleasure and stress. Purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. One sits, with a body permeated of a pure, bright awareness.

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Still, even though one has attained to the condition of meditative concentration awareness called fourth jhana, Nibbana has not been fully realized.


"I guess my problem with this line of thinking is that any pleasure derived from something impermanent (everything except that which it is manifested from) is associated with greed, yet if one is able to enjoy something in that moment and then move on without attachment ..." - Xac

First, please explain "everything except that which it is manifested from". According to the sutta from my last post, the eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body and mind are impermanent, and the objects associated with these senses (forms, sounds, smells, tastes, tactile feelings, and thought) are impermanent. That would make the sensations, feelings, perceptions also impermanent. What manifestations would there be that are not impermanent?

Second, pleasure is that which pleases or a feeling of being pleased. Pleases what? The senses. Feelings are of three types: greed, ill-will, and delusion ... not "just" greed. To "enjoy" is to take pleasure in. The very act of enjoying something is attachment as attachment is clinging, clinging is a conditioned result of craving, craving is a conditioned result of feelings, and feelings are a conditioned result of contact (between the six senses and their associated objects). What really occurs between this contact are sensations. We apply either greed, ill-will or delusion to these sensations.

So, in closing, if you're enjoying something, your taking pleasure in it. If you're taking pleasure in something, your indulging the senses with feelings. If your experiencing feelings, your doing so out of either greed, ill-will or delusion.

Can you just take that one toke and move on? Will that one toke provide only one moment of pleasure and then no more? Or, will it provide many thousand moments of pleasure ... and then you gotta have just one more toke ... and one more ... and one more ...

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[1] The Foundations of Buddhism, Rupert Gethin, chapter 3: The Four Noble Truths, pp70
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Two things that I would like to add to this discussion:
Firstly, as to renunciation:

1
and secondly, as to drugs bringing out a state of greater mindfulness:
Even if we are given a perfect insight and feeling of completion from getting high, or having amazing sex, or eating good food, or getting that wonderful car we've been dreaming of; even if all these things happened, that insight is a compounded thing. It comes about by the causes and conditions of the item and the person (and their causes and conditions) coming together in a moment.

2
I'm just putting these things out there so that we can have some input from an outside source.
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Sources
1: "What is Renunciation" Lama Thubten Yeshe http://www.buddhistinformation.com/tibetan/what_is_renunciation.htm
2: "Maha Parinibanna Sutra" Buddha Shakyamuni
http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida_b_wells_memorial_sutra_library/maha_parinibbana_sutta.htm

 

You know ... I had been giving some thought to this today.

As for marijuana "interfereing" with "mindfulness" ... yes ...

As for whether or not one can smoke, or ingest marijuana and still practice Buddhism ... yes ... One can take intoxicating substances and practice Buddhism ...

One can also kill and practice Buddhism ...
One can also engage in incorrect speech and practice Buddhism ...
One can also engage in sexual misconduct and practice Buddhism ...
One can also take what is not given and practice Buddhism ...

Most of what I speak of, at present, are of the teachings and practices of a Theravada buddhist.

Morality (Sila) is a basis for Meditative Concentration (Samadhi).
Meditative Concentration (Samadhi) is a basis for Wisdom (Panna).

By basis I refer to the conditioning of as in Sila conditions Samadhi. That is to say, without Sila there can be no Samadhi. And, Samadhi conditions Panna. Again, to say, without Samadhi there can be no Panna.

The second noble truth lays out the fact that this conditions that. When this happens continuously, that appears as a result. Some even say it as "because of this, that"

What you have here is what Buddhism teaches. Nothing more. It doesn't say you can't kill. It doesn't say you can't use incorrect speech, or that you can't have sex with someone elses children or wife or husband, or the sheep or cow next door. It doesn't say you can't take what hasn't been given to you, or that you can't get high or intoxicated through drug or alcohol use. What it does teach is that there are consequences to every action. That actions condition the arising of consequences. Actions condition consequences. Because of Actions, Consequences.

The three factors of the fourth noble truth fall under the same "rules" of conditioning ... Because of Sila, Samadhi. Because of Samadhi, Panna.

These three factors -- Sila, Samadhi, and Panna -- are found in the Noble Eightfold Path, which is the Fourth Noble Truth. However, Sila, Samadhi, and Panna are not the Noble Eightfold Path. The Noble Eightfold Path is Right View (Samma ditthi), Right Intention (Samma sankappo), Right Speech (Samma vaca), Right Action (Samma kammanto), Right Livelihood (Samma ajivo), Right Effort (Samma vayamo), Right Mindfulness (Samma sati), and Right Concentration (Samma samadhi).

Sila is Right Speech, Right Action and Right Livelihood.
Samadhi is Right Effort, Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration.
And, Panna is Right View and Right Intention.

Panna cannot appear when there is no conditioning factor.
Samadhi cannot appear when there is no conditioning factor.

So it must start with Sila: Right Speech (to refrain from incorrect speech), Right Action (to refrain from killing, to refrain from sexual misconduct, to refrain from taking what is not given, to refrain from taking intoxicants), and Right Livelihood (holding an occupation which does not cause harm to other beings, whether animals, humans, or other sentient beings such as selling or promoting arms, selling or promoting drugs outside of legitimate medical reasons, selling or promoting alcohol outside of legitimate medical reasons, selling or promoting poisons, selling or promoting tobbaco, selling or promoting the sales of humans or animals as slaves, etc.)

Without Sila, there is no Samadhi ... and since Mindfulness is contained in the factor of Samadhi, and taking intoxicants falls under the factor of Sila, then yes ... marijuana interefers with mindfulness ... according to Buddhist practices.



So, yes ... you can practice Buddhism and not hold any one of the precepts. You may even convince yourself that you are a Buddhist. Heck, anyone can do that, and for no reason whatsoever. Yet ... never will there ever arise in such a one a liberation from greed, ill-will or delusion. At least, not in this present lifetime.

However, through present moment actions one will (not might) condition the appearance of immediate consequences in this lifetime, or future consequences in the next, and/or future appearances in whatever realm one chooses to appear in.


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This is a given whether you do or do not practice Sila ... or ... whether to do or do not practice Buddhism.


I think that even the Christians have a similar belief ... reaping what you sow ... !!!

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I am way out of my depth here, I really am. When i say "everything except that which it is manifested from" I am talking of the cosmic whole in which energy becomes matter; matter, energy. That is to say that everything within our universe is impermanent as it is a manifestation of an ever changing whole, the only thing that doesn't change is the over all "amount" or "value" of the entire universe (or whole) itself because everything within it is one and the same.

 

personally, no, I don't!

 

I think smoking can have a considerably positive effect on peoples lives if used responsibly. I use Marijuana for higher thinking, spiritual bliss, and a different way of interpreting every thing around me (I also experiment with LSD for the same reasons). Because of this, I became very interested in meditaion and various teachings in Buddhism.

If it wasn't for cannabis and LSD, I would be lost. these drugs, as well as others, have helpped me with understanding life, existance, and myself. I also meditate daily and keep a very open mind. Why shouldn't buddhists practice use in such drugs if they could actually help bring more wisdom and self-realization?

Lastly, up into recently, I was very depressed for almost a year. If it wern't for such drugs, I wouldn't have realized what was going on in my life and spiritual mind. I also began meditating constantly-especially while I was 'intoxicated' (enlightened) and now I am a very happy with my life for the first time this year and I have a very positive mind set with my life and actions.

 

I don't know if anyone mentioned this, but Tibetan Tantric Buddhists use marijuana as a meditative ritual as it's (supposed to) help calm for the meditation and give a higher sense of self-awareness.

Spiritually, I have no real comment. Recreationally, Buddhism and marijuana don't mix.

 

Wow - I just realized how much Buddhism is like Christianity. Goodbye bronze Buddha in my living room!!!

 

It's not really a philosophy if there are precepts to follow. That is why it's a religion, in political correctness.

 

From a Buddhist perspective, as has been pointed out, marijuana is unskillful and dulls the minds. However, you might be interested in Googling Jodo Shin Shu and Shin Buddhism (their the same thing) as this Japanese school seems to accept our human limitations and cravings and tries to work within that framework; it has some superficial features that resembles Christianity in its emphasis on faith and Amida Buddha, but it is Buddhism through and through (at least from a Mahayana perspective).

For myself, I don't smoke regularly and wouldn't recomend it. I also do my best not to kill, steal, lie or be unfaithful to my partner. If you factor in that karma arises from thoughts, speech and actions, well I'm no Buddhist saint and neither are most of us. It's why the Jodo Shin Shu doesn't stress precepts as a means to attaining enlightenment.

 

hmmm, buddhism and intoxicants... I recently smoked pot after about 6 months of holding the usual lay vows (non-violence, truthfulness, sexual purity or not sleeping with another before marriage to them, economical honesty or not taking something without prior permission from the taken object's owner, and non-intoxication). I was at a friends house and it is not unknown for them to not smoke marijuana, and after they lit up a bowl in my presence, i realized i would be intoxicated even if i didn't want to be, so i decided not to be as a square or decline hospitality and look like a narc (i hadn't visited them for almost a year) and by much deliberate investigation into non-intoxication that i decided just being in a bodily presence constitutes to one's own intoxication (the intoxication is all skandhas as one body, and promoting these promotes intoxication). Thusly I move that non-intoxication is a complete impossibility as long as you inhabit a body, and non-intoxication should be stressed not as restraint from intoxicating one's body, but rather as moderation and detatchment.

 

oh, did i mention their house is inconveniantly far from my house and it was raining.