Brexit

And the VAT comes from the EU directive 2006/112/EC

That states the minimum VAT for all EU members is 15%

US it's 7%, Australia it's 10%, Netherlands 21%, UK 19%

You aren't getting "free" trade with any good or service within the EU that attracts the VAT when you are paying three times the sales tax as somewhere like the US

 

You sound just as automated and repetitive as Balbus with this.

 

VG

What is it with you and VAT

I’ve already explained the EU stance on VAT – that basically the countries in the EU had differing types and rates of VAT so it was deicide by the states to have a level playing field to fix a EU wide VAT minimum rate of 15% but states could decide on products that didn’t attract VAT and could charge higher rates. Thing is that many countries outside the EU have higher rates than 15%.

It’s a tax so what?

I don’t like VAT because it is a regressive tax effecting the lower and middle incomes worse than those higher up the wealth bracket, I prefer progressive taxation.

[edit] here are rates around the world Sales Tax & VAT Rates Mapped Around The World

 

What I was wondering is why would the UK get better trade deals with the EU after brexit.
They may get more control about certain national stuff where policies were also influenced by the EU. But its not like it gives them a magical new lever with the EU on trade aspects between them (correct me if im wrong there!). So when getting better trade deals with the EU is used as an argument for brexit, I just think: how so? Why would the UK get them?
Maybe its a stupid question, maybe not but the answer is obvious to you and not me. Maybe you can explain it to me?

 

Mal

LOL maybe if you had something of substance to say that was actually worth listening to people might listen to you. All we seem to get is snide remarks and evasion.

I think I and many others would really like to heard what rational arguments you have for thinking the UK will be better off going through with Brexit but even after been repeated asked you refuse to produce anything - all we ever seem to get is excuses, whines, moans and anger so is it surprising people tune you out.

 

VAT and the EU

While VG does seem a bit obsessed by it I have had others bring up the EU wide minimum VAT of 15% before as to imply that the ability to lower it below 15% could be an advantage of leaving the EU .

The thing is that that doesn’t seem like a very rational argument, I mean the UK could reduce its VAT rate to 15% already from the 20% it is set at the moment, it doesn’t because it would then have to raise the money another way or likely reduce public services even more, even if it left the EU and could reduce VAT even lower than 15% it would still face the same dilemma.

VAT rates are not just a matter of the EU but of tax revenue and just having a low VAT rate is no guarantee of a sable and prosperous economy or a counties wellbeing (as can be seen by examining list I posted Sales Tax & VAT Rates Mapped Around The World)

I mean Liberia is one of the poorest countries in the world but has a VAT rate of 7% and in the chaos of Libya the rate is 0% while many of the supposedly happiest countries in the world have high VAT rates for example Norway and Sweden both with 25%.

So the idea that leaving the EU to gain the ability to lower VAT rates seems to miss the point about tax revenues which is more about what is done with the money raised than is important.

 

Thanks for confirming taxes in the UK are high due to EU directives and that you (and I assume most remainers) want to keep them that way

 

Asmo, what's the price of a bunch of hookers and blow in your country?

Where freedom reigns, but taxation is high, what's the price of vice?

 

Answer comes on two parts

1. How can UK get better deals
2. What deals were actual worse in the EU

2nd one, you just have to look at CETA, the trade agreement with Canada and the EU, 6 years of bureaucracy, still not finalised, in the end Canada forced to allow Romanians free visa travel before all members sign off on a trade agreement that has too much red tape for small and medium businesses to bother with, instead they just pay the higher tariffs which actually works out cheaper for them

Which leads to the first part. How is the UK going to get better trade deals; by trading with everyone else that's not in the EU

 

VG

LOL as I’ve said before you are incredibly ignorant and so pig headed you are unwilling to learn.

Is UK VAT rates higher due to the EU

Well what were the rates when the UK entered the EU

Well in 1975 they were 19.5%

What were they when the EU states agreed to harmonised VAT rates at 15% in 2006

Well in 2005 they were 21%

Is seems the EU has nothing to do with the higher VAT rate in the UK.

 

VG

LOL this sounds like you have never ever had to negotiate anything in your life or basically had any relationship with anyone.

It’s all a matter of swings and roundabouts, gains and compromises and I hope you do realise (although frankly I wont be surprised if you don’t) that the UK will have to do the exact same in setting up the new trading deals it will have to make compromises, but now from a much weaker position.

That doesn’t make any rational sense – can you explain it in any rational way – by leaving the EU the UK is abandoning a large number of advantageous trade deals to try and negotiate its own, from a weaker position, and as you point out trade deals can take years and involve a lot of compromises, especially if you are in the weaker position.

How is that better for the UK?

Then as pointed out to you before (do you ever learn anything?)

We can already trade with countries outside the EU other EU countries like Germany already exports more to places like China and India than we do.

What are we going to suddenly manufacture and sell to the world that we didn't as member of the EU that we are going to do when not a member of the EU?

Also if we drop out to WTO rules the type of deal we would have to make would put great (even terminal) pressure on our manufacturing and agricultural base.

How is that better for the UK?

 

Asmo

That can be a difficult undertaking for leavers as there does not seem to be any rational reasons for the majority of the leavers stance. I mean you me and many others have asked even pleaded repeatedly and for me at least in over 40 years I have heard nothing that makes sense for the county and the majority of people in it.

I suppose I can see why certain wealthy groups or individuals might feel they may gain from the shredding of workers’ rights, deregulation and the selling off of public assets such as the NHS and from their point of view that prospect might be ‘rational’ and the reason for pushing the propaganda in support of it. But to me none of those things seem in the best interests of the county as a whole and the vast majority of those in it. It is just likely to make the UK a meaner and harsher place to live for many people.

The question for me is why do so many willingly and passionately give support to something that they cannot defend in any rational way.

 

Ursula von der Leyen: UK deadline makes full Brexit deal impossible : EU commission chief questions Johnson’s timeframe as she arrives for Downing Street talks

The president of the European commission has said it will be “impossible” for the UK to negotiate a comprehensive deal covering all aspects of Brexit within the timeframe set by Boris Johnson.

Ursula von der Leyen: UK deadline makes full Brexit deal impossible

 

And who gives a shite about what the president of the European Commission says or thinks?
I don't.

Some just do not get it.
The UK is now the Dog wagging the EU Tail.
Not the other way round anymore!

 

Booze

Empty rhetoric if you can't back that up

 

People that think we are in a good position in the EU/UK talks are deluding themselves I mean it’s not like we can threaten to leave we’ve done that and they know that leaving without a trade deal hurts us more than them

A study has been made on what the consequences of a hard Brexit would likely have on each EU countries GDP.

The country that loses the most in terms of GDP, around 1%, is Ireland. This is expected given its geographic proximity, common language and historical ties with the UK. The second largest decline in GDP from a no-deal Brexit is observed for Cyprus, at around 0.2% of its GDP. This result is surprising to some extent given the distance of Cyprus from the UK. But it could be explained by common institutions (Cyprus was a colony of the UK until 1960) as well as the close historical and business ties between the two islands.

After Ireland and Cyprus, the vast majority of EU countries will face a decline of their GDP from 0.18% (Spain) to just below 0.1% (Croatia). And the last group of EU countries, from Central and Eastern Europe, will have among the lowest decline in GDP. Hungary with 0.08% and Austria with 0.03% of GDP.

It is interesting to note that the four biggest EU27 countries will face a small drop in their GDP in the case of a No Deal Brexit scenario. Germany faces a 0.16% drop; France, 0.17%; Italy, 0.14%, and Spain, 0.18%.

Hence, the overall effect on the EU27 will be a fairly small decline in their combined GDP – a weighted average of 0.17%.

In comparison, we find that a no-deal Brexit will reduce the UK’s GDP by a staggering 5.8% of GDP.

These results can easily be understood when we consider the fact that each individual EU country trades much more with the rest of the EU as a whole than just the UK.

Agelos Delis - Lecturer in Economics, Aston University


Karen Jackson -Senior Lecturer in Economics, University of Westminster


Oleksandr Shepotylo - Lecturer in Economics, Aston University

 

Trade Deals

The right wing media and pundits might be claiming that the UK is now in a strong position for the trade negotiations but to me that seems rather delusional when every objective analysis seems to indicate the opposite.

The big threat the UK had with the EU was that we would pull out and that got us many concessions when we were a member as the other states knew how disruptive and expensive that process would be, but we’ve done that we are leaving, so we would seem to have no other gambit, no other card to play.

Leavers claimed we would get all we wanted in the withdrawal agreement because of exporting German car manufactures and French cheesemakers but that turned out to be so much hot air and we ended up with a pretty pathetic agreement for all the right wing media spin.

So given the disparity in the in power between the EU (and US) and the UK we are in the far weaker position in negotiations whenever happens they know we are in much more need of deal than they are.

 

Banning the use of the word Brexit does not mean Brexit is over.

Now anyone that know the subject already know that Brexit has only just begun the only way to stop Brexit would have been to revoke article 50 once the withdrawal agreement is signed that is when Brexit truly begins and it will carry on for years.

But I hear that Boris and Dominic think that leavers are so stupid that if they just stop using the word ‘Brexit’ these people will stupidly believe it is all over, I don’t think leavers are that stupid but I fear some of them might be and I’m sure the right wing media and the BBC will play along so let’s see.

 

So, you basically have to flat out lie to try and prove a point


"
On 1 January 1973 the UK joined the European Economic Community and as a consequence Purchase Tax was replaced by Value Added Tax on 1 April 1973.[5][9][10] The Conservative Chancellor Lord Barber set a single VAT rate (10%) on most goods and services.[5][9][10]

In July 1974, Labour Chancellor Denis Healey reduced the standard rate of VAT from 10% to 8% but introduced a new higher rate of 12.5% for petrol and some luxury goods.[5][9][11] In November 1974, Healey doubled the higher rate of VAT to 25%.[9] Healey reduced the higher rate back to 12.5% in April 1976.[9][11][12]

Under Margaret Thatcher leadership, Conservative Chancellor Geoffrey Howe increased the standard rate of VAT from 8% to 15% and abolished the higher rate in June 1979.[5][9][13] The rate remained unchanged until 1991, when Conservative Chancellor Norman Lamont increased it from 15% to 17.5%.[5][9][13"

 

So, in other words, EU is just going to keep stalling

No surprises there