Brexit

Booze

For someone that says he calls a spade a spade you don’t talk plainly or honestly.

In the last reply you hint and imply – rather than just say spade you instead talk about something used in a garden that can dig things up or be used to make holes - you hint and imply but never say SPADE.

I do read your posts and you evade, you refuse to answer questions, you even lie, claiming you have answered questions when you know you haven’t

Come on man have the strength of your convictions and actually start answering question honestly.

 

Balbus

6 or so posts one after the other.

Think you are mentally unstable.

Your post just might prove my point.

 

Galty

I’m posting views, comments and ideas as well as asking questions and presenting criticisms these are all things that should be done in a debating forum, what are you doing?

Have you never debated in your whole life – it is one of the best ways to become educated.

I mean what kind of person would come to a debating forum when they don’t or can’t debate, they would have to be…well…mentally unstable maybe?

LOL

 

Some definitions

Immigrant - An immigrant is someone who makes a conscious decision to leave his or her home and move to a foreign country with the intention of settling there. Immigrants often go through a lengthy vetting process to immigrate to a new country. Many become lawful permanent residents and eventually citizens.

Migrant - A migrant is someone who is moving from place to place (within his or her country or across borders), usually for economic reasons such as seasonal work.

Refugee - A refugee is someone who has been forced to flee his or her home because of war, violence or persecution, often without warning. They are unable to return home unless and until conditions in their native lands are safe for them again.

Asylum seeker - An asylum seeker is someone who is also seeking international protection from dangers in his or her home country, but whose claim for refugee status hasn’t been determined legally. Asylum seekers must apply for protection in the country of destination—meaning they must arrive at or cross a border in order to apply.

 

Fear and loathing on the road to Brexit

Again I’m left with the impression that Brexit isn’t about Brexit

The grievances and complains of many leavers have got nothing to do with the EU

The right wing press do not seem to differentiate between non-EU migration and EU migration or between migrants and refugees or asylum seekers – they seem to want to purposely blur the lines in an effort to mislead and confuse people.

It all in an effort to mixed up all up in people’s minds so they think immigration from the Caribbean, the Indian sub-continent or Africa is to do with the EU and conflates EU ‘freedom of movement’ with the UK’s obligations to help refugees and asylum seekers under international law.

Then these right wing politicians and media made ‘them’ disliked and distrusted by ‘use’ through claiming they are all benefit scroungers, who at the same time are taking away ‘our’ jobs while been a burden on the NHS and taking up all the social housing.

The thing is that the stories told usually do not involve migrants that come to Britain to work from the EU there might be the occasional joke about Polish workers been cheaper and harder working than British ones but most of the stories that appear in the right wing press involve mainly brown people who have sort asylum in the UK, people from places like Syria, or Afghanistan along with lots of mentions of burkas.

So a dislike (even loathing) is created of the ‘them’, all non-EU immigrants, EU migrates and refugees.

And then these same right wingers push the untruthful idea that it’s all ‘out of control’ and all ‘bad’.

It seems to me that was about heightening anxiety and even fear to make ‘them’ seem like a threat to ‘use’

Then these merchants of misinformation twist the screw and scream that the country is at breaking point, that the country is full.

Which again rackets up the tension by making it seem like the ‘them’ are an immediate and present danger

This to me is like shouting FIRE is a crowded nightclub when there is no fire, it’s likely to cause many people harm as they try to escape (even those people trying to point out there is no fire).

People who are afraid do not act rationally, they seldom stop to think (they feel there is no time) they just react.

I think this is what the right wing punters, politicians and press wanted to bring about they created unnecessary fears and imaginary dangers to disorientate people into acting against the county’s and their own and others self-interests by getting then to vote for Brexit.

 

Was Brexit about Brexit and What Happens Next

So we have discovered how right wingers have blurred the lines between immigrants, migrants and refugees making many see them as one group.

Then how those same right wingers have pushed the blame for all the countries problems onto them (problems that actually go back to right wing policies).

How the right has created a dislike, loathing even fear of ‘them’ (all immigrants, migrants, refugees and asylum seekers).

This at the moment has solidified around the issue of Brexit that if we can leave the EU we can stop EU migrants from coming to Britain because of the free trade deal (freedom of movement of goods, capital, services and labour)

But was Brexit about Brexit

We will be able to stop other EU citizens from coming to the UK to work (while also making it far more difficult to trade in goods and services, meaning less work been available in the UK). But few stories the right wingers were pushing to blame migrants for British problems were actually about EU migrants.

And that’s the problem with Brexit is not going to be a panacea for the ‘bad’ things set up by the right wing politicians and media.

The problems that had been blamed on ‘them’ are not going to go away after Brexit they are likely to get very much worse.

So what then?

Well the first question to ask is - who are the ‘them’ and who is the ‘use’?

This is very hard for me to pin down because I don’t see a ‘them’ and ‘use’. I see different groups of people coming to Britain for differing reasons.

But by talking to leavers we can get a picture of who leavers see as ‘them’ and some do talk about EU migrations (the Polish come up on occasion) but usually this in the context of the debunked myth that such worker are the fault for low wages and for taking jobs away from native born British people.

But many have talked to in the context of Brexit who have brought up a ‘them’ that have nothing to do with the EU, but a lot to do with the merging of lines and the imagery pushed by right winger politicians and media.

I’ve heard people complain about the number of brown or black people in their local GP’s waiting room, others have mentioned burkas and we have had someone going into multicultural areas in British towns full of British citizens and think of then as not being ‘British’.

So what happens it we have Brexit?

Well it seems to me that certain right wingers have already established a ‘them’ they can blame for any problems.

So what then do we pull out of international treaties on refugees and asylum seekers and what happens when that doesn’t make things better (because it wouldn’t) do we then turn on the people that are designated as been not ‘British’ enough?

 

To be fair It does seem like most of those claims are for things that would happen after the UK leaves the EU, which has not happened yet.

 

Lobe

You are right and a lot of the things predicted might take a while to show themselves but as also has been pointed out a lot of the things predicted have or are coming about already.

In economic terms there was no deal that could be better than the one we already have, so any other deal was going to have a detrimental effect on the economy, it would just be a matter of how quickly would be the decline.

But always the worst case scenario would be a crash out without a deal of any kind, basically it would be immediate decline happening all at once.

As Pascal Lamy a former director of the World Trade Organisation said putting it in footballing terms it would be like going from the Premier league to the Fourth Division overnight.(presumably because all the foreign player had been deported and all the British ones had decided to shoot themselves in the foot).

A no deal would result in a catastrophic jolt to the UK economy worse than the Thatcher revolution and over a much shorter period without the oil revenue to cushion the blow and that is why anyone that has actually looked into it thinks it would be madness.

But many leavers claim they don’t care what happens to the British economy, many say (well at the moment) that they don’t care if it causes the collapse of British industry and farming because it would be worth it for a return to some type of abstract idea of Britishness.

Anyway as someone said to me the other day many neoliberal right wingers that want a crash out would probably like to return Britain to a Dickensian model, along with work houses, child labour, and gruel.

 

LOL

Booze you don’t have anything rational to say at ANY time

 

Ok the membership of the conservative party (some 100,000 the people) are voting for the leadership of the Conservative Party and in doing so voting who will be the Prime Minister of the UK (population some 60 million people)

A survey of their views was taken and it seems they would be happy to end the United Kingdom as a political unity, cause economic catastrophe and even an end of their own party to bring about Brexit

Its turkey’s voting for Christmas

63 per cent of members would be prepared to see Brexit take place even if it meant Scotland leaving the UK.

Some 61 per cent would rather Brexit took place even if it caused “significant damage” to the economy,

59 per cent would prioritise leaving the EU even if it meant Northern Ireland breaking away from the rest of the UK,

54 per cent would accept the Tory party “being destroyed” in order to secure Brexit.

They are a price worth paying to get Brexit

Most Conservative members would see party destroyed to achieve Brexit | YouGov

 

And we are back to Tory leaders lying to people in an effort to sell a unicorn

The two front runners to be the next leader of the Conservative and Unionist Party are playing to their base, a membership of around 100,000, of which it is said some 80% are in favour of a hard Brexit.

Oh they have claimed they will try and get a ‘better’ deal although they are very low on detail and have been told repeated that that can’t happen and especially in the timetable.

We have already pissed away two years trying to get a deal and the next deadline is only 3 months away BUT MPs only return to parliament on the 8th of October only 18 working days before the UK would be due to leave the EU.

I think Johnson and Hunt both know they can’t get another deal - which makes them liars - but what makes them dangerous is them seeming to want people to believe that crashing out of the EU will be simple and have little negative impact on the UK.

 

Dear Leavers

Are we frightened yet?

The Japanese government has given a warning about job risks over Brexit

Nissan, Toyota and Honda make roughly half of the U.K.’s 1.5 million cars, employing tens of thousands of people both directly and through the supply chain and supports a hell of a lot more businesses.

Anyway Honda have already announced earlier this year that it will close its U.K. plant, and Nissan cancelled plans to build a new sports utility vehicle at its Sunderland factory

But there are many more Japanese companies as there are other foreign owned ones.

Peugeot is threatening to pull out as is BMW and Ford has announced its Bridgend engine plant in south Wales would close in September 2020, and Jaguar Land Rover, has cut thousands of jobs and is moving Discovery SUV production to Slovakia.

Carmakers are delaying investment decisions (auto investment was down almost 50% in 2018) because of fear over Brexit, while making plans to move.

And it’s not just carmakers, Airbus has also said it can’t see carrying on in the UK after a hard Brexit (and I’ve heard will slowly pull out even with a soft Brexit) it has roughly 14,000 UK employees in Bristol, Portsmouth, Wales, and elsewhere, and supports another 110,000 UK jobs

In all this where are the sunlit uplands?

 

And if half the country lose their jobs they aren't going to come to Cornwall and spend money in a gift shop.

 

I thought Jaguar was British. :confused Why would they pull out?

Well, if it's looking that bad, I wonder if there could be a vote to consider referendum... something like "should there be a referendum on Brexit? Yes/No" or something.

 

Soul

Jaguar Land Rover is owned by Tata Motors Ltd an Indian company.

Most of the car companies with British ‘names’ are owned by non-UK companies

Rolls-Royce and the Mini – by German BMW and Vauxhall – by French Peugeot

[edit] And to add many cars ‘made’ in the UK, are not wholly made in the UK, with parts coming from all over Europe which in a no deal Brexit will make manufacture problematic at best and some say impossible (Airbus have the same problem and are worried for the same reasons).

 

Sometimes one sees a poster in a shop or wherever and it says far more than some pompous know all know fuck all person who spouts a load of drivel.

The other day was that day in a shop window near were I live.
Got this Brexit lark spot on I say!
I rest my case!

 

That gave me a chuckle!


INDEPENDANT SOVEREIGN STATE!

Bring It One!

 

Booze you are still peddling the same cap and still uncaring about the harm you want to cause this country

If a fucking zombie attack happened tomorrow the sun would still rise and the sheep would still be lambing but it still means zombies would be munching on the brains of the people of Colwyn Bay.

As pointed out Brexit is already having a detrimental economic impact on the UK economy and a hard Brexit would be devastating for UK farming, the sun will continue to rise each day on a UK economy in decline.

The lambs of Wales

Almost all Welsh meat exported from the UK goes to the EU.

Welsh farming unions’ leaders have asked the government to pay sheep farmers to prevent the mass slaughter of lambs if there is no Brexit deal… Nick von Westenholz, the director of EU and international trade at the NFU, said sheep farmers were particularly vulnerable because they rely heavily on exports to the EU that could be halted for months if the UK crashes out of the bloc.

And after that “If there is no deal it would be horrific for farmers, especially in the sheep sector. If we have tariffs of 40/50/60% we wouldn’t be able to compete”

 

So the bike shop owner’s preferred option seems to be for a hard Brexit to WTO rules?

But no one who supports a hard Brexit seems to be able to explain how a fall down to WTO rules would be good for Britain while everyone else who’s looked at it thinks it would be terrible some say catastrophic.

Even many supporters of WTO say it would destroy the UK’s agricultural and industrial base, in the theory that in time (30 years) market forces would fill the gap (this was the same belief for what would happen after the coal mines were closed).

Many pin their hopes on the services industry but WTO rules don’t really cover services so there will not be much comfort there.

Anyway this would also put us in an incredibly weak position in any future trade deal discussions.

Others pin their hopes on Article 24 but….

“A lot of Brexit supporters - including the Brexit Party - argue that the UK can use something called Article 24 (of GATT - the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade) to ensure that the UK can still enjoy free or frictionless trade with the EU.

It would mean no tariffs or taxes would be imposed on goods crossing borders between the UK and its largest trading partner, the European Union.

The trouble with that argument is that you can only use Article 24 if two parties are willing to make an agreement - in this case, the UK and the EU. Neither can impose it on the other.

In other words, you have to agree a deal first and the Brexit Party, along with several would-be Conservative leaders, are prepared to leave without a deal”