Brexit

Is that a soccer reference? :-D That was a well deserved victory, no bashing

 

Small attempt to introduce a note of humour into a cheerless topic.

 

The Brexiteers railed against what they called EU "Red Tape" in a ridiculously triumphalist and cavalier manner.

Here is some of that "Red Tape" which we might be losing:

http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/five-laws-the-european-union-helped-stop-the-tories-from-passing--ZygyRM8GAEZ

 

^^ Thats Interesting Eight Kinds of Nipples in the World

 

As far as I have read, if we wanted to continue in the single market from outside the EU, we'd have to accept most of the regulation anyway. Norway are in that position now, and was used as a model by some Brexiters. The thing is, we'll have no say in formulating regulation as we had as part of Europe.

 

Oi, but none of those cover the really important stuff, jobs, growth, the econimy, the nations public and private debt yada yada.

Well the first 4 anyway.

As for no 5. Well France's laws as an example about not emailing workers after hours or actually legislating against overtime...how do those companies then compete against companies in Singapore or Japan.....I'll let you how, becuase at the current time they are still part of an artificially inflated euroeconomy that is bound to collapse becuase of those very rules.

Which is what this whole argument really is. A lot of socially responsible ideals that might seem good in the short term. But someone has to pay for it somewhere. France just can't say, I'm, it's now illegal for a whole bunch of people to work more than 40 hours a week, and ignore the rest of the world.

Animal Welfare, Conservation, climate change. Hell EVERYONE in the first world has a bigger carbon footprint. And you need money for most of those programs to be effective.

Look at Britain's fossil fuel consumption per capita compared to the rest of the world and who, where they buy it from, then come lecture me about the environment

 

Van

I really wish you’d read what other people post in these forums and do a little research

I’m not sure what you mean here – the UK government and Bank of England had control of these things (as much as any nation has) already without Brexit – I mean you did know that the UK wasn’t part of the Euro zone didn’t you? Do you know anything about the right wing economic policy known here as Austerity? Do you know who sets the interests rates? Do you have a clue how the UK system works?

As mentioned a lot of the things you mention jobs, growth, and the economy along with the national and private debt have all been dictated by right wing neoliberal ideas for over 30 years or so often unique to the UK.

In relation to jobs, full employment it’s not a priority in neoliberal economic thinking (unlike Keynesian idea which try for full employment) in fact for some neoliberals unemployment is seen as a good thing as it can drive down wage rates (as does immigration).

I one of things about the brexit vote is that many who voted for it where in areas that had suffered detrimentally from those very same neoliberal policies - so much so that they received economic support from the EU under its scheme to try and revitalise run down regions.

They basically were biting the hand that was trying to help them, in favour of those that had beaten them up and left them for dead.

As to workers rights – as I mentioned above neoliberals disliked the EU because it was often a block to their ideas here is something I’ve posted before.

the political history of the 20th century (in the industrialised nations) has been to one degree or another about the curtailment of the adverse effects of 19th century exploitative capitalism (some call classical liberalism).

People in many nations fought for voting rights, social benefits, safer working conditions, progressive taxation, and decent living wages. The result of that movement was that the economic benefits of production were much more distributed. Many people saw their wages grow and in the period between the end of WWII and 1970 many in Europe and the US gain middle class status.

But from the 70’s onward a new idea was promoted in some of these nations (often referred to as neo-liberalism) it was in many ways opposed to the ‘distributive’ system that had developed. One thing it promoted was economic globalisation, which basically allowed back some aspects of exploitative capitalism by promoting the moving of production to nations that had not developed the more distributive systems away from those nations that had.

In this way the long fought for distributive system has been undermined in those places where it had developed. Neo-liberals argue that to ‘compete’ in the global market the elements of the distributive system need to be dismantled what is needed they say is deregulation, the cutting of welfare, tax cuts that benefit the rich, lower wages, weak government oversight etc etc.

 

Well things are going the way I thought they would – Mark Carney has been trying to raise the UK interest rates since he got the job as Governor of the Bank of England but he now thinks he is going to have to cut it again even though it is already at its lowest rate EVER (0.5%).

A good economy should have both savers and buyers, savers because it is always good for institutions and individuals to have something to fall back on in times of adversity and for old age - buyers are needed to purchase things and keep liquidity in the system.

Simplistically put high interest rates favour savers lower ones favour spending supposedly in upturns interest rates should go higher to stop an economy overheating (and crashing) and in downturns it should go lower to stimulate spending and investment and growth.

The big problem with low interest rates is that it encourages risk, speculation and debt.

The other problem is that even with the lowest interest rate ever it still hasn’t produced very much in the area of growth and no rise in productivity levels.
So the other thing they did to try and get things going (and have brought back) is quantitative easing this while the Chancellor is saying we are going to have to borrow more money. Both could have serious long term repercussions.

And as I predicted we begin our drive to the bottom as the Chancellor also say he will cut corporation tax to under 15% (it was 30% in 2008)

 

Bad news for savers - and if inflation creeps up, they'll effectively end up with negative interest on savings.

Meantime Farage has resigned once again as leader of UKIP. Too early to say 'good riddance' as he's played this game before.

 

Seriously, can you do a single reply without doing that? Can't you read, can't you understand. Do I know what Austerity means? Like me or anyone else nowadays would be able to type that word into Google if we didn't actually know.

Then up pops a paragraph that's plagiarized both in this thread, and a thread from a year ago

"the political history of the 20th century (in the industrialised nations) has been to one degree or another about the curtailment of the adverse effects of 19th century exploitative capitalism (some call classical liberalism"


http://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/466429-the-need-for-social-global-governance/


Then comes this:

Really, right wing neoliberals...as opposed to left wing neoliberals. If I replace right wing with conservatives there, neo is Greek for new, and liberals with conservatives. You've just referred to 'them' as conservative New conservatives.

But seriously, jobs, growth, the economy, public and private debt have all been dictated by conservative New conservatives over the last 30 years.

How do you expect anyone to respond to that? Every part of the economy, and only by neoliberals? Which I suppose you would define as anyone that doesn't agree with you. It's one of those statements that are intentionally vague so you don't have to bother with a supporting argument, and anyone calls you on it, you just come back with, oh, can't you understand, can't you. And half the rest of that is copied and pasted

Friedman vs Keynes, what is that 1st year economics or political science

 

The post directly before this one, you ask me, do I know who sets interest rates.

Then the very next post you start off with the Governor of the BoE has been trying to raise interest rates...all by his little self. You think he works alone?, you dont think all reserve banks across the world really just follow a formula. He is sitting in his office all but himself, having an evil laugh "yeah I'll raise the cash rate, that'll fuck em"

Raising interest rates is a bad thing for you becuase you pay more on your credit card.


There isn't really anyone left arguing in this thread anyway

 

as a brit who lives in a very multicultural part of England. I was shocked upset and angered by the vote to leave the Eu. because I believed Britain to be stronger and safer in the Eu. however I am even sure now that it is most likely going to go to a parliamentary vote which if it does I believe will vote to remain. The worrying and upsetting thing is I am seeing a rise in racism and intolerance and ignorance feed by an increasingly biased media who ignores the real cause of the problems in this country. we are simply in crisis and this was happening way before migration immigration got out of hand. yes, it did. there is simply a class war going on the feed by the rich for the rich using migration refugees Muslims to deflect people from the truth. I do not have much hope for this country and my trust in its people and leaders went when David Cameron become pm.

 

I can empathize deeply with that. Maybe you're right and Parliament will vote to stay in after all. But if they do, that will itself lead to more trouble. Having the referendum in the first place was a big mistake, and only happened because Cameron wanted to protect his back against Tory Euro sceptics and UKIP. Also a a diversionary tactic.

I have no trust at all in the political establishment here. The people are pretty much told what to think by the neo-lib media. I can't recall a time when Britain wasn't in crisis. It's post imperial decline really and has been going on for about 100 years.
The rise in racism is very worrying.

 

I think we have to remember the media part in the racist thing..

I don't believe there are more racist than was, look at the multi cultural schools now, i believe the government and media is behind the propaganda, not the people.
People are fed up of cuts, and living on the edge, the racist thing, your right Bill, I too believe it a diversion, but so long as we know this, it won't work.

If there was a decent party to take over, I think if conservatives were out, people wouldn't have voted to leave, but alas, it happened, we have to work with whatever the out come is now.

But conservatives must go!

Just my thought

 

Unfortunately I think we'll be stuck with the Tories for some time to come. Labour have once again let the people down. I know that many voted to leave because they are fed up with Tory austerity and having little or no voice in the running of the country. The problem with that is that the Tories will probably use it to erode further the rights of workers and if the economy gets even worse, and it looks like it will, more austerity. I'm also concerned that it has been EU regulation protecting our natural environment for all these years, as well as human rights and many other things. The Tories will now be able to ride rough shod over all of that.

I don't think people who weren't racist before are racist now - the trouble is that the vote has fuelled the fire of those who were already racist.

 

I know it probably sounds crazy, but I wish, hope, one day, people will remember, we live in one world!
That we each as a country, contribute to that world, that where people are poor in that world, we give water, food, that no people see war..but alas, that's my dream!
But until then, I hope the conservatives are brave enough to have an election when they get a new leader, that some other party comes up trumps, and we get the support needed to take us through whatever is in our future, that England rises from the ashes, at some point, but the people need hope, there is no hope with conservatives in charge! None at all

 

Football.

 

Naturally!

That's what we call it here too. Spelled voetbal in dutch

 

Van

Sorry I don’t understand - are you saying you could Google these things but haven’t and are therefore still ignorant of the answers or you did and now know a bit more about what you are trying to talk about?

How can I plagiarise something I wrote? Do you know what plagiarise means? You could Google it.

I’m quite happy to explain - I’m just not very clear on what you need explaining, so far it seems to be about nearly everything on this subject, which mean it’s going to take some time.

Sorry are you asking me to explain that to you as well?

And you need me to explain this also?

 

Bill

As I’ve said before most common people gained little from empire it was only with its decline that people more advantaged, compulsory education for all 1870 -1944 (free school meal 1907), National Insurance act 1911, rise of council housing 1919 – until 1980’s, improvements in healthcare 1929-to the setting up of the NHS 1946, and people didn’t get the vote until 1928.

Thing is that it all started to go into reverse in the 1980’s when the neo-lib ideas started to take over, we pissed away our oil revenue propping up Maggie’s flawed experiment, now its running our we the people have nothing really to show for it (our infrastructure wasn’t upgraded and we have no sovereign fund like the Norwegians do). we are now reaping the affects of the wrong course the country took back in the 1980’s and from which we didn't really wavered even under 'New Labour'. The hallowing out of manufacturing in favour of services, the lack of investment in new technology in favour of the financial sector, outsourcing, the job prospects robbed from those in the north and never returned, the bashing of the EU to cover British government mistakes and so on and so forth.