Being A Libertarian

Expectation: As a person with right and left wing perspectives, I can have open dialogue with everyone across the spectrum and get along with a lot of people.

Reality: Your views are unpopular, and everybody fucking hates you

 

Libertarian is just another limiting label.

 

My experience is it is all how you communicate your views.

 

First up what type of libertarianism are we talking about here – there are many versions form left to right.

After being on the forums for a while I’ve noticed that for most Americans libertarianism seems to mean right wing libertarianism basically low or no taxes, free market leaning and doesn’t really care about social issues as long as they don’t have to pay anything. Oh and they never seem able to defend their ideas from criticism in any rational or reasonable way.

 

In a way I agree. Labels are another way to try and dictate an individual's thought process. Even worse is when you have a couple ideas that go against the philosophy of that said label, that clan will find a way to ostracize you. But the only cone in handy to paraphrase your ideology into one word.

Or the other person's sensitivity levels and tolerance thresholds.

I'm talking about libertarian in general terms. People on both ends who have the loudest voices and the heaviest influence in the political landscape seem to hate libertarians. In my experience, the issues that leftists and rightists disagree with libertarians on, are the issues they value the most. They don't like centrists either. Even though it's the centrists who are the ones who decide all unrigged elections.

You mean you don't despise libertarians? Only the people who fall to the right of Noam Chomski?

 

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I’m still not sure of what you are getting at you say ‘the issues they value the most’ but don’t actually explain what you think they are.

The thing is that it’s often hard to say ‘in general terms’ when you get into specifics, I’m of the left and proudly say I’m a leftie but the left takes everything in from hard line Stalinists to suck up to the rich Blairites, niether of which I'd associate myself with.

I’ve described myself in the past as - a pragmatic socialists with strong Keynesian and green leanings - but know that doesn’t cover everything.

Labels can be useful tools but they are not definitive.

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With that in mind let me give you some views of the either end of the libertarian spectrum.

Left Wing Libertarianism

To me left wing libertarianism reminds me of the Marxist view of Anarchy that would evolve from communism, the withering away of government because humans have learnt not to need it, a place where the distributive and protective roles of government are no longer needed because people will chose to be equal, helpful and peaceful.

As such I see it as worthy but utopian and would only be possible if humans developed into a better species than they are.

Right Wing Libertarianism

https://www.hipforums.com/forum/topic/143078-bringing-in-libertarianism/?p=2069483

This is also sometimes as seen as anarchist under the termed anarcho-capitalism but -

Anarcho-capitalists are against the State simply because they are capitalists first and foremost. Their critique of the State ultimately rests on a liberal interpretation of liberty as the inviolable rights to and of private property. They are not concerned with the social consequences of capitalism for the weak, powerless and ignorant. Their claim that all would benefit from a free exchange in the market is by no means certain; any unfettered market system would most likely sponsor a reversion to an unequal society with defence associations perpetuating exploitation and privilege. If anything, anarcho-capitalism is merely a free-for-all in which only the rich and cunning would benefit. It is tailor-made for 'rugged individualists' who do not care about the damage to others or to the environment which they leave in their wake. The forces of the market cannot provide genuine conditions for freedom any more than the powers of the State. The victims of both are equally enslaved, alienated and oppressed.

As such, anarcho-capitalism overlooks the egalitarian implications of traditional individualist anarchists like Spooner and Tucker. In fact, few anarchists would accept 'anarcho-capitalists' into the anarchist camp since they do not share a concern for economic equality and social justice. Their self-interested, calculating market men would be incapable of practising voluntary co-operation and mutual aid. Anarcho-capitalists, even if they do reject the State, might therefore best be called right-wing libertarians rather than anarchists

A History of Anarchism by Peter Marshall
http://www.amazon.co...7013781-2335648

As such I don’t see right wing libertarianism as a worthy goal and movement toward it is very likely to lead to an increase in exploitation and suffering for many, to me it is the road to dystopia and therefore that direction should be fought against.

 

Being batshit crazy aside, where do you guys think Gary Johnson lands on the libertarian spectrum? "True" libertarians (and I'm not quite sure what that term even means) hate him for not being libertarian enough and Republicans hate him for being too libertarian.

In my opinion he had his own "version" of libertarianism that fit within the confines of the 21st Century. That was appealing. Because I think libertarianism has a lot to offer, but I also think its archaic and outdated and the staunch libertarians are either wealthy elites or farmers from 1803.

 

I don't think Johnson falls on the libertarian spectrum. Based on his positions, he doesn't seem to buy into the Non-Aggression principle. Which is the bedrock of Libertarian ideology.

He supports a carbon tax, which is a taxing scheme enforced by a massive government bureaucracy. Supports forcing bakers to bake cakes for gay weddings, and Nazi birthday parties. Voiced support of government forced vaccinations. Voiced support for the TPP and Merkle's refugee program. Entered office as NM's governor with a debt of $1.8 billion, and left office with a debt of $4.6 billion. Totally contradicts small government libertarianism and the non-aggression principle.

 

I'm sorry but I keep reading this as librarian and it really makes me ponder how my life would be had I been surrounded by books... Those beautifully scented old books.

 

these days you would mostly be surrounded by computers.

 

I'm a true Libertarian: I believe all same sex couples have the right to defend their marijuana fields with automatic weapons.

 

As I mentioned, this thread is about my experiences in trying to have open dialog with non-libertarians of the left and right. Mostly the College Campus liberals and the Sunday School conservatives. To them, libertarian is a pseudonym for son-of-a-bitch. Sunday school conservatives don't like libertarians because we don't care what religion you practice as long as you keep it from governing our laws, among many other things. College Campus liberals hate us because we know that hate speech is protected as free speech, among many other things.

It's possible to be a left wing libertarian in philosophy, just as long as your outlook reflects the non-aggression principle. If my memory serves me well, the only left wing libertarian politician I know of ran for president as a democrat in 2008. Mike Gravel was his name. He joined the libertarian party once the democrats discarded him and pretended he never existed. He is possibly the only democrat I'd've ever considered voting for.

 

I think I'm a bit of a left wing libertarian

I even believe in fiscal conservatism, believe it or not!

But I guess where most libertarians and I differ is I want to see our tax money spent responsibly on social welfare. Not welfare as most Americans think of it, as something that reinforces cyclical poverty but rather as something that encourages good health, pursuit of higher education, arts and culture, rehabilitation versus punishment in our prison system...programs that promote a sense of well being, equality, and happiness in the general population.

There are a lot of unnecessary pork programs plus excessive military spending that could be cut to do this. Not that i'm holding my breath.

Most libertarians i've came across seem so against the idea of their taxes being spent on other people that they give me the impression they would be perfectly happy stepping over bodies in the street rather than a dime of their tax money going towards someone else's healthcare

So for me my problem with libertarians boils down to a moral issue because of things like that

Shaman, I think as for you it isnt so much your libertarian leanings but your propensity towards typical Republican and Trumpet talking points.

 

What do you mean about the non-aggression principle? I recall him being very isolationist. I mean, he didn't even know what the hell Aleppo was.

And I had to look up the New Mexico thing, and you're right. That's disconcerting though, because I had been duped by propaganda. I was led to believe that he cut a lot of spending.

 

Here's some sources about the Non-aggression Principle:
http://nap.univacc.net/
https://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Principle_of_non-aggression

To me, i feel it's next to impossible to be a libertarian without the non-aggression principle. Johnson may have some libertarian-ish traits about him, but he seems like a big government centrist to me.

 

Well I sure hope every taxpayer wants their government to spend wisely.

See, healthcare is a cliche where liberals like to portray us as heartless pieces of shit.

I don't wanna turn this into a healthcare debate thread, but I will say this. We don't want to see people dying on the street. We just argue that government meddling with every facet of healthcare drives up the prices and lowers the quality and accessibility of healthcare. But again, it's a different argument for a different time.

Oh I'm not just referring to my experiences on Hipforums alone. This is just how it's been, trying to have open discussions with people vastly different philosophies. I mean, yeah, I've been able to have some substantial discussions with sensible people of different opinions, but it's rare. Then again I'm not really into talking politics and religion very much outside of the internet anymore. With everything in society being liberal vs conservative, you'd think being a libertarian might make you a good middle man, but in my experience that totally isn't the case at all.

Regarding Trump, he's not my most ideal president by any means, and I have my grievances about him. But sometimes it's fun to stir the pot by sharing my unpopular opinions on a message board.

 

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But I’ve meet a lot of people who are not ‘libertarians’ that think the same from both left and right so that doesn’t work as a libertarian specific trait.

Again I’ve meet those on the left and right that have very similar view to that but don’t see themselves as libertarians.

OK didn’t know him so did a bit of research and he seems to me to be a right of centre liberal rather than a libertarian and especially not a left wing libertarian.

I think this is a problem I’ve highlighted before that because the US has no real left wing group those on the right think liberals are left wing where in most places lefties see liberals as being to the right of them.

Take the UK we have The Conservatives (right) Liberals (going from right and left of centre) and Labour (left).

For the US it is more – Democrats (mainly liberal right of centre) Republicans (right to further right) and if anything right wing libertarians would be extreme right (the US did once have a growing Socialist Party but left wing political though was mostly purged from US society in the period 1920-60, the red scare to the Un-American commettes).

Anyway back to Mike from what I can tell he supports a Carbon tax, and international action on climate change as well as supporting universal and publically funded healthcare and free publically funded education up to college graduation.

But he has also described himself as "very much of a globalist" who believes in open free markets and open borders as well as reforms to the tax codes that would mainly serve the interests of wealth.

So yes more of a right of centre liberal.

 

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Well this has been covered many times in numerus threads and the right wing and especially the right wing libertarian argument just doesn’t stand up to scrutiny because they seem to be built on the false premises of Social Darwinist and free market thinking.

But as pointed out right wing libertarian thought is more of an extreme position than a centrist one.

Again this is the same problem i pointed out above about American politics in that because there is nothing really pulling from the left it leans politically so far to the right.

 

My point was that those were just lite examples. I'm pretty confident I don't have to explain to you why liberals usually don't like libertarians. Much of the establishment right doesn't like libertarians either, as you probably figure.

Well yeah Gravel and I disagree on those issues listed. Maybe he lands a bit to the left of Gary Johnson. He isn't perfect, but I remember in 2008 he appeared better than what much of the GOP had to offer. I'd still consider him over a generic republican any day.

I agree that the US could do with more major parties, or just get rid of them all together.

I think that a person can be a left wing libertarian in philosophy. But it would be very complicated to put into practice because to enforce many left wing policies (like price controls) requires a fist of authority to see these policies go through. Authoritarianism is the opposite of libertarianism.

"I dodged bullets and traveled many miles across rivers, oceans, mountains, deserts, jungles, and treacherous terrain to escape the tyranny free market libertarianism."

-Said no person ever

Most right wingers would find my views on abortion, alternative energy, GMO foods, a non-aggressive foreign policy, reducing military spending, an abolition of state sponsored religion, giving reparations to the black community by giving them better schools, abolishing central banking, legalizing recreational drugs, and a few other stances of mine quite abhorrent.


How about you Balbus. Are you a left wing libertarian? Why or why not?

 

I've just always wondered how you reconcile being a libertarian with supporting someone like Trump who has such obvious authoritarian tendencies

Anywho I'm not really trying to portray libertarians as heartless, I very much want to like libertarians as I like their social views for the most part and I think we need a significant third party

But I just feel like that's how libertarians portray themselves when it comes to healthcare. And I think libertarians are way off the mark there - like what you said about healthcare, for example. Government isn't the reason the US has the highest healthcare cost in the world, it is because we have a for profit system and there are a lot of people with a vested interest in benefiting monetarily from sickness and disease. This is a favorite pet subject of mine but I wont get too deep into it in this thread, my apologies

I think the libertarian stance on deregulation is one reason liberals and libertarians dont get along as well as one might expect. For example, liberals have fought a long uphill fight to put environmental protections in place and clean up the air and water in major cities all across the country and - please correct me if i''m wrong - it seems like most libertarians want to wipe out all that progress and hand power over to corporations to do what they wish with little to no regard for the environment