Attention Christians for Bush

Old testament rules regarding slaves:

Not to compel the Hebrew servant to do the work of a slave (Lev. 25:39)
Not to sell a Hebrew servant as a slave (Lev. 25:42)
Not to permit a gentile to treat harshly a Hebrew bondman sold to him (Lev. 25:53)
Not to send away a Hebrew bondman servant empty handed, when he is freed from service (Deut. 15:13)
To bestow liberal gifts upon the Hebrew bondsman (at the end of his term of service), and the same should be done to a Hebrew bondwoman (Deut. 15:14)

Those ones are quite nice, really. There's a difference between someone who went into slavery to pay off a loan (bondsman/woman) and a slave. I added the two at the top if you're interested.

To keep the Canaanite slave forever (Lev. 25:46).
Not to surrender a slave, who has fled to the land of Israel, to his owner who lives outside Palestine (Deut. 23:16).
Not to wrong such a slave (Deut. 23:17).

Those are kinda nice too, like even if a slave is a gentile then you can look after it and save it from its owner, but if you're a Canaanite bad luck I guess. Anyway, those are the only references relating to slavery, which translate into guides for one to treat their slaves, that are in the old testament.

 

Good informative post Disarm.

I remember a few of those.. but i have to admit I never studied them in depth.

There is a situation where the Israelites and all that world were doing these things.
These are not practices instituted by God .. however, when God does appear to give these people some rules of conduct - He includes warnings and rules to apply to their Slavery system.

One Poster here has insisted this does in fact 'condone' Slavery.
I disagree.

I see more of a situation where God does not interfere or really concern himself with the worlds 'System' - instead he institutes order in his servants, which ultimately translate into changing the system from the inside.

Errr.. .. Im pretty sure slaves of that day were not refered to as 'Its' though heh.

I did read up on the Roman system (during Jesus day) and the crazy thing of it - Being a Slave in Roman society may very well have put you in a much much better position than just about 99% of the rest of the world at that time.

I still say modern day Slave-classes in North America are the most disgusting and de-humanising of all.

IMHO.

 

I don't remember the reference and I'm not really feeling like looking it up...But when I was younger in my Sunday School (8 or 9 maybe) they had a lesson where you signed a pledge to pierce your ears for God. They had a verse for it from the OT that mentioned something about a servant's ears being pierced for a particular master... this memory is very vague but I swear I think its a real memory!... I'm just fuzzy on the details... How strange, huh? Little girls gettin' pierced for God...

Yep I agree and so many of the modern slaves aren't even aware of their enslavened status... I like making up words...

Well sure, they make you feel warm and fuzzy with rhetoric and glitzy promises of ten fold blessings that'll come back to ya when you plop down a minimum of 10% in the plate when it's passed (you'll be led to give so much more if you're really holy, though)... but at the base of it all Christianity boils down to fear. Believe in God through Jesus Christ or fry like bacon. I'd say that's a Fear based motivator for sure.

 

I agree. I don't like mainstream Christian churches. I don't like feel good messages either. A message should touch your heart and speak to your soul. Not say, "As long as you sit in this pew, you will be ok".

 

This is a bit of a broad and vague generalization don’t you think? Do you mean to say that my reasons for being a Christian have their ultimate basis in fear? Or perhaps that no one has ever converted to Christianity without first hearing about Hell? How could you be so certain of this? What of those branches of Christianity that believe in no Hell? How do you account for the fact that these branches gain members?

 

Yes, it is a bit of a broad generalization. For sure there are many "good" Christians who focus more on the love of Christ and having a deep personal relationship with God. But the heaven-for-believers and hell-for-non-believers policy of Christianity still hangs over one's head. Even those that don't yell and scream about it or feel that they are Christians out of fear still dole out patronizing pity and missions programs for all lost souls that are in any religion but Christianity. As for the branches that gain members without belief in Hell, even within the circles of Christian faith those "rebels" are looked down upon as "fake" Chrisitians. I'm not saying at all that there can't be churches without talk of hell--sure, there are lots of them. Just that most Christian churches do include belief in hell.

many churches may not preach about hell but it's because people don't like to hear about it. The fact that it is what "God's word" says even if it isn't preached all that often in some churches supports my claim that Christianity as a whole is in fact a fear based religion.

I have no way of knowing what your personal motivation for being a Christian is. It could have been handed down to you from your parents, you could have been a raging drug addict who went to some Christian mission program and Saw The Light, but I DOUBT very, very seriously... please correct me if I'm wrong... that you stumbled across a Bible, opened it up, read all the New Testament, and put together for yourself a dot to dot version of Christianity. (which would have to include hell of some sort.) More likely you are a Christian with a broad base of social Christian outlets, and it's just the sort of life in which you feel a comfortable belongingness, and Christianity-- the study of Christianity from some bias or another-- satisfys your need for understanding spiritual matters. And if there's ever anything that doesn't make sense or seems contradictory you can simply revert back to the age old God argument...

Abortion should be rare, but not because it is illegal to have one.

Yes! This was my point through the original posting of the article. I look forward to reading the later post, it's been awhile since I studied Calvin vs. Wesley.

 

I’m not sure what you mean by the “love of Christ,” but I’m willing to bet that your definition of “love” vs what is actually meant by the term as it is used in the bible, is quite different—but that’s merely an assumption on my part.

And why shouldn’t they? Perhaps the believer wants the non-believer to know the truth. This is a normal practice, and it actual shows love—yes love—for the person he or she is trying to reach.

Say’s who? I see no passage that makes belief in Hell essential to salvation. Do you? So how can someone be considered a fake Christian simply because they don’t believe in Hell? Furthermore, you're missing the point. These Christians may very well share the same beliefs as other Christians, except they don't believe in Hell. In fact, many of them are even members of churches that do teach the doctrine of Hell. They have the same beliefs, just believe Hell is a fictitious place. So, how do branches that deny Hell gain and maintain members since they lack that “fear factor”? Also, why do some Christians stay Christians even though they don't believe in Hell?

And…? What, they shouldn't?

You’ve lost me. I can’t follow your hidden logic here. Since there is a negative consequence in rejecting God, then Christianity is based in fear?

No, I didn’t open up a bible and read the New Testament before I was “saved,” as that’s rarely the case with anyone. A Christian usually has a very, very simplistic, often times misguided, view of Christianity at the time of salvation (or justification). Usually he only knows that he is a sinner, and is in need of a savior, and that Christ fulfills that since he died on the cross for their sins. At the time of conversion, often times a Christian won’t know what else to believe except that. At any rate, the key here is the person’s realization of being a sinner in need of God, because it produces a longing for God—that is, at that moment, the non-believer wants God and can usually care less about anything else (Hell included). After the non-believer gains salvation, so begins his life long journey to become “Christ-like” (sanctification) and it is at this time that he begins to develop his theology (although some never really progress, very far) perhaps even learning of Hell for the first time.

Well Christianity certainly doesn’t make one feel comfortable, if anything, the opposite is true. Surely there are many other beliefs systems that one would feel much more comfortable and belonging in? Ones that don’t require him to change his old habits, that don’t ask him to act contrary to his human desires, that don’t require a complete capitulation of his will. Now, perhaps you don’t want to do this. Maybe you imagine that you will have to sacrifice your mind. Maybe images of mindless fundamentalist come to mind, and you get frightened by this. Maybe you're frightened by the idea of having to give up your idea of what is moral in favor of what God says, and will, in turn, have to admit that you are sinner that deserves God's judgment and punishment. Perhaps your beliefs are a wish projection of your own frightened, unbelieving state. You, at all costs, want to avoid being confronted with the reality of a God who is judge and who demands repentance for sin. Therefore, perhaps your beliefs are based in fear.

Maybe it's easier for you to just classify believers in a certain way, since it gives you the convenience of removing the necessity to take seriously the believers arguments. After all you’re just frightened by the implications of them.

Perhaps I’m a believer simply because I’m convinced that it’s true. That other worldviews reduce to irrationality. Maybe, just maybe, my beliefs have nothing to do with a fear of Hell.

Well by all means, lay out your worldview; your theory of knowledge, ethics, and meaning; your axioms, and let's discuss if they reduce to self-contradictory nonsense.

 

Whoa.

Your reply kind of turned me on with its intensity and sincerity.

OK.
You're a believer simply because you're convinced it's true.

Can you accept that I am not a believer because I'm convinced that it's not true?

Boy, Christianity sure covers its bases though, I mean... villifying and giving warnings against unbelievers... Freaking people out about The Antichrist. Saying that if you, a Chrisitian, merely wish an unbeliever Godspeed you are a "partaker of his evil deeds." Wow that's loving. And we all know we don't want to be partakers of evil deeds, right?

Let me back this way back down...

Q. Jatom:

A.Me:

I suppose I should have also said that my generalization comes from a very fundamentalist view. Which I know is insanely narrow to most Christians.
But their taking everything so literally is what made me begin to ask small questions which grew larger and larger until I began to wonder what this religion actually had to do with God, the creator and sustainer of life. It's just a sick world to live in (to me) when your belief system tells you that God created you, gave you free will and a choice, and if your choice isn't him (and most choices are not him), bye-bye. Oh no! I forgot, nothing so easy as bye-bye-- which would simply be non-existence-- but an eternity in hell.

I KNOW we've gone through that argument at length. And we disagree.
Moving on from there.

I'm talking about people who focus more on the love of Christ, emphasizing the fruits of the spirit, doing good works, LOVE-- you know agape, phileo, whatever.

OK, here again my upbringing was different... Millions of dollars were spent on missions and the plea we always heard was that there were millions of souls perishing and going to hell because no one was there to tell them. Honest to God. Tennessee Temple University/Highland Park Baptist Church. Do a google. It's a crazy place. During missions conferences there would be a ticking light clock thing for each supposed soul that had died and gone to hell without God.

So again. I made a broadly based statement from narrow personal experience. You're right, shouldn't have done that, but there are plenty of folks out there that fall into whatever category I'm even talking about.

You're sharing your truth out of love so that the other person can know what you know-- the peace and love and fulfillment possible with Jesus. OK. The peace and love and fulfillment that are the alternative to, by the way, hell. (And by god, you love 'em enought to try to keep 'em outathere.) Which makes someone very stupid to not be a Christian if they do happen to believe the whole plan of salvation thing. I simply don't believe it.

Holy hell, dude, how about
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosever believeth should not perish but might have everlasting life.

If there's no hell, what the hell are you getting saved from?! And don't give me that crap about saved from yourself...

God's warning-- Romans 6:23a "for the wages of sin is death..."
God's gift-- Romans 6:23b "but the gift of God is eternal life..."
God's Provision-- I Cor. 15:3,4 "Christ died for our sins... he was buried... he rose again the third day..."
God's Way-- Romans 10:13

Not being "saved"=Sin=death=hell
Salvation=God's gift=eternal life=heaven

As for calling some Christians fakes, If you reject part of God's word (teaching about hell) then you don't wholly accept the bible as being the holy-inspired word of God, which means you must be under a false spiritual teacher/prophet-- and there are lots of warnings about those buggers.

side note: I feel the urge through conditioning to go back and capitalize the word God, as if not doing so is blasphemous... it's a key on a keyboard, a letter, I'm sure god doesn't care.


[Quote by SingflowerCat:
I'm not saying at all that there can't be churches without talk of hell--sure, there are lots of them. Just that most Christian churches do include belief in hell.

I DON'T GIVE A BLOODY FUCK IF THEY DO OR NOT!!!! I'M SIMPLY SAYING THAT MANY or most CHRISTIAN CHURCHES DO BELIEVE IN A LITERAL HELL whoa I'm yelling ummmmmm
and that
Hell as a destination that one chooses if they don't choose salvation is what I would call a fear-based motivator.

Well, yes. I reckon that is what I'm saying. There's surely some fear involved if you do believe that hell exists because you probably want to do whatcha gotta do not to end up there.

NO, I'd say that my beliefs are not a wish projection out of fear, but instead are based on not logically being able to believe in a God who would create such a system. Sure, OK, I want to avoid that Judge God who angrily --and lovingly, right?-- demands repentance for sin, but more than that I simply don't believe he exists in that way. I do believe in many things, which I guess would take me out of the pot you threw me in, the "frightened, unbelieving" pot, and throws me into the "I'm just not a Christian but I'm also not scared" fire. So to speak. And yes, from time to time it crosses my mind that perhaps I could be wrong, so I go back and study Christianity and the Bible and come away with the same questions and no answers.

Oh. yay, look more judgement and punishment talk!
I will readily admit I'm a sinner
"For there are none righteous, no not one."
but deserving God's punishment I'm not so sure that God wants to punish me. I know I punish myself in the consequences I bring about by my "sins".

Oh, honey, I've certainly looked at the Bible from many many different perspectives. I do take seriously believers arguments. And it all boils down to faith. The fact that you believe something that I simply do not, can not. If it doesn't make sense to me and I CAN'T believe it because my brain refuses to process the Christian information in a way that computes logically to me... I'm at a loss...

If I believed the christian argument and rejected it then I would be frightened by the implications but since I don't believe it it removes the fear factor. It would be like me being scared of the tooth fairy.

Wow.
Please stay tuned for long upcoming thread it may take a minute or two.

arghghghghrrrrghghghghghg

regardless of any of this I hope that anyone following this reply who has read this far is having a wonderful day and that you're happy to be alive in this crazy beautiful world because I sure am. Happy I mean. And my day wasn't bad.

It is super late I don't know if any of this will make sense I need some sleep, y'all!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Peace
Love
Happiness
to each
and
all

 

Wow, I appreciate your response! Unfortunately, I'll be out of town and won't be back for about two weeks, so I'm not sure If I'll have the time to reply before then.


Peace!

 

Hell is alienation/separation from God. There is no reason to fear this unless you love God and long to spend eternity in communion with him. Think of it like a marriage. I try to please my wife because I value our relationship more than my selfish desires that would destroy our marriage if I let them.

 

Falwell and Robertson are Calvinist to the core. They are certainly NOT Arminianists. Not by any means. I will post a new thread on Arminianism verses Calvinism.

 

Gandhi, " I admire Christ, but not Christians."

I also like to quote John 3:16, and here is another one I like.

" I have said ye are Gods, all of you are children of the most high.”
Psalms, Ch. 82, V 6

I enjoyed your post, and even the yelling did not turn me off. Your message is clear, and one I agree with virtually all the way. I too lack any bit of fear of hell or the devil. It has not been a concern for me since I was eleven, and decided it could not be so. I have tremendous affection for the message of Yeshua Ben Joseph, but am not a Christian.
So, if I am wrong, Satan's gonna git me and take me to his fiery pit. Oh well, such is life.

 

That was a rather insulting comment from Gandhi.
Very judgemental and sound like it was based on prejudice and misinformation.

Never mind agreeing with Christians teachings - The amount of charity work is simply astonishing!

I still have yet to see anyone reach the ends of counting with the Christian Childrens funds, shelters, food-banks, hospitals, seniors care, literacy programs, educational programs and just general do-goodedness in the world today.

Its virtually uncountable.

Well.. I guess it wasn't enought to earn Gandhi's seal of approval.

What did he do again?

His followers are known for what now?

 

i agree, Brocktoon, it is a harsh and general condemnation which sounds unlike something Gandhi would say. I wonder if he ever apologized?
He also said, " Western civilization? An interesting idea...."

I am always very humbled by the charity of so many Christians, and myself sponsored children in Guatemala through Plan International (Foster Parents Plan), for over ten years. I chose that charity, though, due to its lack of religious affiliation.
I do not support the use of these charitable organizations to spread Christianity, and have seen the way that the evangelizing can get tied to the charitable works. I would be more pleased if the charitable work itself was totally separated from the mission work. It is too easy for it to be seen as "buying souls" in my view.

What are Gandhi's followers known for.
That's easy.
India! 1 000 000 000 strong and counting.

 

Its kinda weird and slightly uncomfortable when we get along BlackyG.

I am not aware of India following Gandhi's 'way'... I know he is very popular in India all the same.

 

You must not be very knowledeable about Christians.

 

Slightly? it is damn scary to me.

I should have clarified, I only meant that he is a very key piece in the chain of events that led to India becoming more than an outpost of the British Empire.

Though, having worked in numerous homes of Indian immigrants, their respectful, modest generous manner reminds me of him. Of course there are a holes too, but they have been rare, amongst the immigrants. It is different in the cases of Canadian born and raised folk in my experience. I dont know why, though.

 

Its likely that most of the Indians you were meeting were Sikhs from the PunJab region.

Ya, there are as many good and bad Sikhs as there are anyone else i find.
I dont care too much for the wholesale buy-out of 'New Delhi Delta' and Surrey.

 

I think that we are unable to comprehend the awesome nature of God. When man's mind gets in there it because tainted, and negative by the EGO (devil).


I love Jesus and Buddha. They were men who ascended on this planet, and realized the ultimate truth and embraced it with a pure heart/mind. There was no deception and they realized that God is everywhere and in everything....

Remember the "Kingdom of Heaven is INSIDE OF YOU" and "You to can do what I(Jesus) have done, and greater"



Peace and Love

 

I think people claim that human beings cannot understand the awesome power of God because within such a circumstance there would be no need for rationality. With such inconsideration of rationality one could easily accept the ways taught of God and there by reach the afterlife and no longer feel the forlorness associated with existential nihilism.

Cute kid in your sig.