Are you proud?

Discussion in 'Judaism' started by Ali_bin_Abi_Talib, Apr 29, 2007.

  1. I saw a video recently on Youtube of a drunk settler in Isfake (get it?) yelling to a christian with a camera "we killed Jesus and we are proud of it. This is my land you fuck. God gave it to me. We are going to kill you and the Palestinians you fuck. Get off my land you nazi."

    How many of you jews really believe this? Honestly.
     
  2. the dauer

    the dauer Member

    Ali,

    there are sick people of every religion, but generalizing Judaism based on that sort of disgusting tripe would be no different than a non-Muslim referencing a video of a hostage taken by Muslim extremists and generalizing that. Nor is either accurate or fair. In truth, most Israelis don't like war, and want peacable resolution. But they're also very very scared. The current Palestinian Authority isn't really helping either. It's very difficult for one country to give up land to another when one of the long-term plans of the receiving country is that the giver should in some way be gone from the face of the earth.

    For alternative reading that also doesn't speak for the entire Jewish community but that does present a very different perspective I suggest you read:

    http://www.tikkun.org/

    They also have a progressive interfaith activist movement, the Network of Spiritual Progressives here:

    http://www.spiritualprogressives.org/

    Now to answer your question about whether or not I'm proud:

    Sure, it's important to take pride in who we are, but certainly not in any sort of backwards triumphalist way that claims the superiority of who I am to who you are. Well, I suppose that's not entirely true. I find fundamentalism of any kind generally abhorrent and would suggest in most cases that not being funadamentalist is much better than being fundamentalist. But I respect anyone's right to be fundamentalist as long as they do it in a peaceful way.

    Dauer
     
  3. Irish Hippy

    Irish Hippy Member

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqlRBnLAn-g

    i think this is the video that you are talking about
    at first when i saw it i figured he is just a kid, then i realised that kids are just a product of the environment that they arte brought up in. So really this one kid is a reflection of the society at large in which he was brought up in. That isnt ALWAYS the case, but it is what appears to be here.

    It is a sad situation
     
  4. the dauer

    the dauer Member

    Did you notice the kid was wearing tzitzit and had peyos, sidecurls? The society that produced him is not mainstream Israeli society.

    You know in some of the haredi, the ultra-orthodox communities, they still hold according to some very late texts, from a 2-3 centuries ago, that non-jews only have an animal soul. It's hardly a mainstream Jewish idea and was never mainstreamed into Jewish theology. I was very saddened to see the comment underneath the video that said, "Typical Jew." There is so much ignorance in the world.
     
  5. BudToker

    BudToker Senior Member

    No Jew I know is proud of such a thing. Neither did the Jews kill Jesus, the Romans killed Jesus and it's a fact.
     
  6. This jew was obviously proud of it. Being a kid, that means his parents must be proud of killing Jesus, and maybe alot of others. The point I am trying to make is that the Jews always try to paint the muslims as murdering rapists who eat children, when in reality, they wish to kill all of the muslims. (The shrine that was erected at the grave of Dr Goldstien [the man who walked into a mosque on our Eid and unloaded 2 clips into men women and children] is a testament to that)

    Now, what Dauer had to say about them using very old texts. I know exactly what your talking about when you say the "gentiles have animal souls" thing because I heard it in an Islamic lecture about Jewish extremism. Is this old text you are refering to called the Judea Encyclopedia or something? I have also heard that a Jewish Scholar said one Jewish fingernail is worth more then all of the non jews combined. Tell me, does the talmud not teach this? I talked to a man on youtube (takferi) who said that the Talmud and the Torah mock Jesus and his Blessed Mother.

    (As a side note, those Jews who are very knowledgable in their religion, I ask that you lose the jewish terms or at least translate them so we gentiles can know what your talking about.)

    JazakAllahu Khair
     
  7. the dauer

    the dauer Member

    And the fact of the matter is that's just not true. There are extremists in every religion, and in Judaism they're a small minority, generally the haredim who are the ultra-orthodox, those guys you see walking around in black hats sometimes who all dress very similar, they have peyos often. Those are the sidecurls of hair. The majority of Jews don't dress like that, and are all-in-all from a different society. Often the haredim are very cloistered, although there are also some more open groups.

    I didn't say they use very old texts, I said they use relatively recent texts they are not canon. Canon is a term in religion for those texts that have achieved a central, sacred status to a people. Judaism goes back thousands of years, so a couple centuries ago is not a relatively long time. It's not in any mainstream texts. It's in some hasidic texts. They were created at a time when Jews were under heavy persecution and were despised and stereotyped heavily, this having a huge negative impact in the Jewish community both reflected as violence against them and a general bigotedness of the non-Jewish population toward Jews that created an environment far more unfair than dhimmitude. In this environment a reactionary association of a lot of negative stuff with non-Jews formed. The only people who hold onto that are the ultra-orthodox. Orthodox is by definition strictly holding to certain beliefs. Ultra-Orthodoxy in Judaism takes that to an extreme, and it began to take initial form around that time. The way they dress isn't very ancient. It's eastern european, from that era. And for the same reasons they dress that way, they hold tightly to those types of books, and everything really, don't want to move forward.

    Judaism is actually good at attributing ideas to the generations they belong to. The gemara, the talmud, contains minority opinions that certain things, which other rabbis explain in the same texts perfectly logically, are the cause of demons and other similar notions sometimes appear. Judaism generally says that was due to Babylonian influence, and doesn't think less of the texts because of it.

    It's not from Encyclopedia Judaica. I would imagine Encyclopedia Judaica might have some articles that discuss those types of views, but in a disconnected way more akin to Western Scholarship that it sounds from your description were more than likely removed from their context. It's certainly not a text that hesitates to point out when Jews have been stupid because it sees that history as important.

    Honestly, I really think there are better ways to counter Muslim stereotypes than by pushing another stereotype that's just as innaccurate. By pushing another stereotype you're really just creating the possibility for more ignorance, not for decreased ignorance. The good thing is it gives me the opportunity to counter some of the stereotypes with factual information and make some of that visible. Even if it doesn't help change your mind, it might help remove some ignorance for others about Jews and what we're about.

    There are a lot of misquotes of the Talmud out there, some of them taken out of context, some falsely attributed when really they're from one of those late texts I mentioned, and some completely fabricated. This website goes over those sorts of false attributions and things and also supplies real quotes on the issues raised:

    http://talmud.faithweb.com/

    If you didn't understand any of the words I used, please present those place to me and I will clarify.

    Dauer
     
  8. BraveSirRubin

    BraveSirRubin Members

    I cannot believe that people in this thread are actually feeding the troll.

    Ali, your ignorance baffles me.


    On the topic of hassidic Jews... they are probably the biggest internal problem in Israel, they are a great obstacle in the peace process.
     
  9. BudToker

    BudToker Senior Member

    SOME Jews do this...but the majority? No. Some Muslims say they want to kill all Americans and all Americans are swine who deserve to die...but the majority? No.
     
  10. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

    Pavel, better he get some answers, nu?

    Ali,
    for most Jews, Jesus is outside our realms in that he has no position in our faith.
    At best, he's one of many false messiahs.
    Sort of like Krishna has no impact on Islam.

    extreme views pollute the rest, imo. and that goes for all faiths, from the Abramic faiths to neo pagans.

    I see Islam as a cousin, and therefore the women are my sisters and men my brothers. Sad that a family feud has gotten so bad.

    I suspect that the OTHER faith has taken advantage and played us against each other for centuries.
     
  11. I just wanted to apologize for my arrogance and ignorance. Sometimes watching what comes out of Palestine really gets my blood boiling. I just wanted to remind people that when the muslims ruled Spain the Jews were treated extremely good and when the christians took over, many jews went to live in the heart of the caliphate- Turkey. I don't really see it as a family fued, I see it as a land dispute being driven by right wing jews and christians. Sometimes though, it seems like all of you guys support the concept of greater israel. You know, the christians only support israel because they think it brings Jesus quicker, not because they simpathize with you guys.
     
  12. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

    oh, that is mostly true.
    However, I believe that Israel as it is today has a right to exist and SOMETHING has to be done to rectify the Palestinian Muslim situation. But first you have to unravel the empires that helped create the problem.
    It isn't just an Israel issue, but Britain, too.

    what comes out of Palestine breaks my heart.
    Justice, Justice, shall thou pursue. (Deuteronomy)
     
  13. The_Moroccan_Raccoon

    The_Moroccan_Raccoon Senior Member

    Christianity and Islam are both related to us...and I personally think if G-d promised the land to us, then He promised it to Christians and Muslims too...

    I personally see Jesus as a prophet...there was definitely something divine, but he was not the messiah..and even if Jews did kill him, it wasn't The Jews who did it. It was some people who were Jewish. Just like even if the terrorists responsible for 911 were Muslims, it does not say that The Muslims did it. It was people who happened to be Muslim.

    G-d also said "You shall not kill" and anyone who does kill has broken one of the ten commandments, and is not a good Jew...and DOES NOT represent the views of anyone who really believes in the Jewish faith..
     
  14. drumminmama

    drumminmama Super Moderator Lifetime Supporter

    crucifixion is a Roman concept.

    Ali, please stay around.
     

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