Are Gun Bans Realistic?

Is every mass shooting of the past ten years, anti-depressants have been involved.

 

I presume that by "every", you mean some.

 

That does not surprise me. Interesting how someone who may have anger and suicide issues gets prescribed something that can cause anger and suicide issues...
Which means either they are working or they are not.
Sometimes a person gets put on antidepressants for their depression and it makes them even more depressed or worse - BEFORE it makes them less depressed.

What needs to happen is that if doctors prescribe ANY psycoactive medications, those patients should be MONITORED CLOSELY for at least 2 to 3 weeks. Not simply given meds and sent home to do whatever, and HOPE they work...
If you are on psyco meds and you are having a bad reaction, you may not even realize it, due to the reaction you are having...

 

Right to bear arms in a well formed militia. Bloods & Crips are not militias. Joe Bob Who likes to hunt & keep his kinfolk safe is not a militia.

 

I would think it refured to something like the National Guards

 

Actually anybody with the desire can form a militia. There are private citizens militias everywhere. That's something the government does not like, beause they have no control over them. Which is one reason they want to take away the guns. The STATE POLICE were formed a long time ago to REPLACE local militias... It didn't work.

 

Are gun bans realistic?

Probably not. But how realistic is controlling the use of tobacco, legislating the purchase of certain light bulbs, forcing kids to wear helmets when riding bikes? It works when the public submits to it. Find the right pr campaign and anything can be restricted. Secretaries and boxboys now have to pee in a cup before they get a job. You have to agree to having your financial status investigated when applying for work.

Many of the things we submit to today at one time were protected personal rights, but we have given them up on the false promise that it would lessen our costs or protect our assets. Eventually they will find an argument to make you give up your "guns".

 

Well said! That is the problem not the guns themselves. If
you ban guns people will use something else to kill with.
I think America has to get to the root of WHY people are killing.

 

Pertaining to concealed carry and how some states deal with them. I heard recently that the governor's office here in Kansas has been sending out multitudes of those signs that are the gun with the slash over them to all kinds of businesses. This in the wake of a concealed carry law finally being passed in our backwards state. So, the voters through their representatives (ostensibly) are able to get a concealed carry law passed through, then the governor and the rest of the anti gun crowd fund campaigns to make business owners think that the law that was passed could be dangerous for their business.

This kind of shit pisses me off. It should be up to individual business owners to post these types of things, not the power of suggestion by the governor's office sending them a sticker or sign to put up banning customers with legitimate concealed carry licenses from carrying on premises. I can't wait to get the hell out of this state, and move somewhere its acceptable and respectable to retain the means to protect yourself and those around you.

 

END THE WAR ON DRUGS....that will most certainly end a lot of the gun violence going on in our country

 

Simply put: Weapon prohibition is no different from Drug prohibition or Sex prohibition. 'nough said! Prohibition is prohibition.

 

And so you not only support the current legal system, the police, and the concept of an eye for an eye, but you think more punishment is better and to hell with treating people for drug addictions/mental illness in a more clinical or compassionate setting in order to help them be more "socially acceptable." Just toss 'em out with the trash. huh? ANYONE who supports the legal system, the jail system, the police, is PART OF THE PROBLEM. Hell, you'd probably like it here. 'Round here if you are a felon in posession of a firearm your odds of being gunned down in cold blood by some SWAT team piggy are really good. Just kill 'em all and let god sort 'em out, right? Don't take into account any individual situations, just slap a number on 'em and make 'em pay, one way or another. Fuck that. Jail is torture. So you support torture. What if I were a convicted felon, say, for a marijuana charge 20 years ago. Supposing I wanted to go hunting to put food on the table? I should be tossed in the slammer and treated like dirt for years because of it? That's just plain evil. You have just shown your true colors and they ain't pretty.

 

My biggest suggestion would be to wake up and realize that humans are instinctually violent creatures. I'm not just talking about physically violent. What is your knee-jerk reaction to something that pisses you off? You get mad back. Maybe curse or say something shitty to whoever pissed you off. That is human nature. The things you do without really thinking about it. And as humans, we cannot escape this without going somewhere like a monestary.

This nation was stolen from the indiginous people who lived here. Stolen using guns. Every war that was fought to keep this nation going in it's "preferred" direction was fought with guns. Every branch of the military - the acceptable form of protection/punishment - uses guns. Our so-called "public servants" with the uniforms, badges, and our collective blessing use guns to do what we are either incapable of or afraid to do ourselves. And even tho sometimes some of us don't agree with their methods, somehow it is still acceptable. As long as the use of guns is acceptable in any measure, and as long as they are available in any measure, there will be people who will have and at times use them for their nefarious reasons.

Humans have armed themselves since there was such a thing as humans. To expect at this time that it would be possible to disarm "criminals" and live happily ever after is ridiculous and a waste of time. I could spend my days picking fleas one by one off one of my dogs thinking that fleas ought to be banned, but I would never get anyhwere until someone figures out how to eliminate not only fleas altogether, but dogs as well.

The ONLY cure for this gun problem is massive "re-education" of society on how to live happily, how to get along with others, how to solve disputes constructively, how to treat and care for the mentally unstable....
As a human race at this point in evolution, we are so far from this model of human decency that we may as well be cave men. And using the legal/prison system as it stands does absolutely NOTHING to fix the problem, but rather creates the opposite. And as an analogy, beating your children even harder for their wrongdoings will not make them stop doing wrong, it only will make more anger and more desire to rebel. That too is human nature. As in war, "an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
I once watched a mentally unstable person who had been punched in the face and had a black eye and a hell of a headache HIT HIMSELF with a cane on the other side of his face to "equalize" the pain. This sounds really stupid, but it seems to be the same concept that alot of pro-gun-ban (and other) people think is the right way to deal with the problems. And it simply isn't. The eye for an eye mentality only promotes more of the same. Putting your dukes up, drawing a line in the sand, all that just creates more of an atmosphere of anger and hate. It feeds the beast.

The human race, even if we ALL started today, will not be "rationaly evolved" enough in this life time to fix all their problems. And anyone who thinks there is some magic cure, especially one that utilizes more pain and violence (physical, spiritual and emotional) is simply beating their head against a wall.

And, no, it weren't no misdemeanor.

 

As you and others know we started a thread to look for a solution or solutions.

I think re-education is needed but there will never be a flip a light switch solution. We need to start with the kids growing up. Instill real values, start programs to get others to work together not compete against each other.

Im still for some major reform in the justice system but I feel lower level crimes should be treated but crimes of violence need to be handled with a swift hand. I think we take and allow far too much with people who kill. You kill people for any reason other than self defense or an accident then I firmly believe in the death penalty. You commit further violent crimes while in prison you should get the death penalty just like a problem animal. I believe criminals should work off thier debts but also I believe if a criminal serves there time when they get out they should have thier rights back. I mean your in there to pay a debt, if you serve your time then your debt is paid so why loose more?

This could be real long so I wont get all into it but yes there is a major need to change laws, drop laws, make laws and enforce what is there and what should be there. A series of programs to assist those in need, an hold liable those in the medical community that instead of seeking the root of the illness just go out and toss pills and ect around without knowing for sure what they need to treat. Examples are alot of mental illness has the same symptoms but certain drugs can make an illness worse.

 

What do we do with them? We stop dumping millions of dollars of wasted money into the legal/jail system and start pouring it into mental health treatment programs and facilities. We put "unacceptable" people in a mental health/hospital/counciling type setting rather than in jails. We start treating troubled people with respect instead of ridicule and with compassion and understanding rather than torment and violence. We begin showing them a new and positive way of life.

The death penalty should be abolished. Death is not punishment nor is it rehabilitation. It's just a way to make some jail guard's job easier.

People who MUST be locked up should be treated as handicapped. And programs should be set in place for these people to STILL be productive members of society, even tho they must do it from a more limited environment.

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"And if it was a felony drug charge then you have lost your right to own a firearm. Sorry but thats the way it is and as far as I am concerned thats the way it should be."............

Uh. That's the way it is. No room for individual circumstance. No room for change. Just the way it is. Hey, I don't even LIKE guns, and don't really want one. I'm a pacifist. But this is WRONG. I'm a farmer. Sometimes things happen and an animal has to be put down. Sometimes wild animals start killing the livestock. And you would have me do what exactly? This attitude is part of the overall problem. And it's stupid too. If I need a gun, I can get one in fifteen minutes. Who's gonna know?

I live among a bunch of "old school" rednecks and hillbillies. Hunting and guns is a way of life. You can spout bans all you want, but it will do absolutely nothing except piss off a bunch of folks. And pissed off folks have a higher average of doing violence. This is the WAY IT IS IN THE REAL WORLD.

 

I totaly disagree with this. I believe there are persons that are just beyond the ability to assist, that while in prison commit further acts of violence against others such as jailhouse rapes ect. I believe firmly these people are no longer human and able to be assisted, that they do not want the help and should be dealt with like any other animal that poses a threat to the whole. You kill them off.

 

Well of course the way to deal with this is not making it optional! And obviously, since things are not going to change over night, we will continue to do whatever we are doing until such time as someone gets smart and figures it out, sets things in place and the actually does the changes. And then it will take some time to see results. Why does everyone assume there is a quick fix? These kinds of things tend to move so slowly in the US that your kids might see the benefit if we started tomorrow.

Too many assumptions.
Posession. 1 pound. 1 1/2 years UNSUPERVISED probation.
Felonies come in all shapes and sizes. MANY are non violent with no weapons or violence involved. Why do people assume the word "felony" must have some connection with violence? That just means you are buying into their propaganda.

 

Pitt invited me over to this thread and I was in two minds as to joining in since there seems to be enough gun issue threads on at the moment and so far the pro-gunners in those haven’t seemed that willing to enter into any type of open or honest debate anyway.

But being the eternal optimist I thought ok maybe in this thread they might just be different.

Well I’d first have to say that the complete ban thing for the US isn’t the way I would go, people would have to want it and believe in it and I don’t think American attitude are that way inclined.

To me it is those attitude that need to be tackled, I’ll reprint my theory here to see if the pro-gunners are more willing here to discuss the issues raised than they have been so far.

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My theory is that there is a general attitude among many Americans that accepts threat of violence, intimidation and suppression as legitimate means of societal control and this mindset gets in the way of them actually working toward solutions to their social and political problems.

This is because that attitude colours the way they think about and view the world.

They can come to see the world as threatening, they can feel intimidated and fear that they are or could be the victim of suppression.

This attitude can lead to a near paranoidic outlook were everything and everyone is seen a potential threat that is just waiting to attack or repress them. This taints the way they see the government, how criminality can be dealt with, how they see their fellow citizens, differing social classes, differing ethnic groups, and even differing political philosophies or ideas.

Within the framework of such a worldview guns seem attractive as a means of ‘equalising’ the individual against what they perceive as threats, it makes them feel that they are also ‘powerful’ and intimidating and that they too, if needs be, can deal with, in other words suppress the threatening.

The problem is that such attitudes can build up an irrational barrier between reality and myth, between what they see as prudent and sensible and what actually is prudent and sensible.

For example many feel they need guns to ‘protect’ them from the government, but how realistic is that belief and what in essence does it mean?

If anyone looked at the history of the US they’d see clearly that gun ownership has never been a tried and tested method of escaping the actions of the government. From the suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion to Ruby Ridge and Waco, in fact the use of weapons against authority has been seen as justification by many or most Americans for tough action (repression as a means of problem solving).

But have the armed citizens of America been a bulwark against injustice or have they more often than not helped perpetrate it? If people actually thought about the classic cases of injustice in US history they would see a pattern. More often than not guns in the hands of ‘decent people’ have been used as a means of suppression. From the subjugation of the ‘savage Indians’, the repression of ‘bestial negroes’ to the defence against ‘insidious pinkos’ the use or threat of force has been obvious and the gun the symbol of that power.

But it doesn’t have to be a gun, this attitude is about having ‘equalizing’ power, the ability to threaten and this is why the argument runs that if there were no guns then there would be swords and knives and in that case they would want also to have swords and knives.

It seems to me that when threat, intimidation and suppression come to be seen as the most important (or only) means of dealing with domestic social problems and the outside world, the mindset becomes blind to alternatives.

So in crime (as in many other areas) ‘toughness’ in other words repressive measures are praised while calls for understanding of the social context that leads to criminality is dismissed as soft and ‘giving in’ to the criminals.

Guns are just part of that repressive approach.

I feel that it could be this attitude that marks US culture out, of course not all Americans have this viewpoint and not everyone that does has it at the same intensity of feeling but I believe enough do to make the viewpoint prevalent.

It is my contention that if this attitude didn’t exist, many social and political problems would be dealt with in a lot more rational and realistic manner and the feeling that weapon ownership was so necessary and desirable would not be so widespread in the US.


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Pitt your being dishonest again –

It was you in this very thread that said – “ok how about this then instead of a gun ban lets get serious about the real problem. Guns used in crime”

You had opened up the argument to include not just "are gun bans realistic?" but to other ways of tackling crime.

You then invited me to view those suggestions and since this is a debating forum presumably comment on them and that subject?

But as I’ve pointed out the attitudes that seem to underpin many Americans views on guns also makes it difficult for them to deal with many social problems (including crime).

“It is my contention that if this attitude didn’t exist, many social and political problems would be dealt with in a lot more rational and realistic manner and the feeling that weapon ownership was so necessary and desirable would not be so widespread in the US”

So yes let’s get serious about the real problem.

 

Your opinion based theory has nothing to do with gun bans. I explained and sourced why I did not think gun bans would work. My post was suggesting an alternative to a gun ban. Your post was nothing but the same old copy/paste of your baseless opinion.


They are however theories that you have yet been unable to refute in fact the theories during these debates seems to have grown stronger, just on the comments that have been made that seem to indicate it’s validity.

On the other hand your opinions have been shown on a number of occasions in the MAD, Solutions and Guncrazy threads to not be as concrete or valid as you like to present them.

To me to find solutions we would first have to understand what the problems are, and in my opinion one of those problems is a mentality that refuse to try and understand what the problems are.

Until that mentality is confronted any true solutions will remain out of reach.

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