Any Atheist And/or Agnostic Rt's?

Im curious as to hear you beliefs.

Rather intrigued, perhaps you could flatter us religious/atheists.... Why is it pathetic to have faith in that which none can surpass?

 

Atheism is starting to sound like a combative word......not all atheists are combative....most that I ever knew were live and let live....whatever gets you through the night is all right....etc. I am the same way......

 

I don't consider myself an atheist. I was raised as a Christian but I've always had a very analytical mind from day one, a,ways wanting to know more about how things work, and more importantly, WHY things work the way they do. I can't prove or disprove the existence of God, and neither can anyone else I don't think. it is human nature to desire to understand things, the more you understand things, the more you realize that these things may never be completely elucidated. it is tempting to invoke God whenever you reach a point where things seemingly defy reason .. the universe doesn't operate on human terms. however, a solution is always found, eventually leaving more questions...

it's hard for us humans to accept that the universe can be represented mathematically, and much of what can be represented mathematically is just so far outside of things that we can effectively realize comceptually in terms that of everyday experience that we think that there must be something else. I think the fact is that there are aspects of the world that we cannot ever directly interact with or observe using our senses.

magnetic fields and electric fields are really two aspects of the same thing ... light is an electromagnetic phenomenon and even tho I can understand this, it's still really hard for me to actually fm grasp this. I know they are the same thing, but they are such different phenomena as perceived by humans.

I consider myself a thinker

 

I cringe at the word 'beliefs'. Trust me, we won't find common ground between us.

 

Well, here is the thing, Ace.
I don't label myself atheist....that sounds against religion. I am not against religion....although, I am against what happens in the name of it sometimes.
I like the term free thinker, as that is what I am....never wanting to be set in my ways, but having the ability to grow and change always and always open to new things....some of which I may not relate to at all, and other things I may incorporate to the inner core of me. ....
Have you ever watched The Elegant Universe in its entirity.....? In the series....there is a level of sub atomic particles that do not follow any mathematics. What do you think of that idea?

There is just no way to encapsulate them into any formulas....Isn't that what would make the possibilities endless and the beauty of it all?

 

Then why even even voice your opinion?

 

Are you implying that because there might be no common ground between yours and his opinion (on this particular matter) he shouldn't voice his opinion at all?

 

I meant ethics committees there...

Terrence Mckenna, imo one of the best philosophers and psychonauts of the last half century, suggested the world is made of language. It is an interesting idea to me.

An illustrative example of this is someone was holding a pear the other day and he asked the question to someone else: "Why do they call it a pear... when it's only one?"

There needs to be language associations of the homophone to get the joke.

 

OK - i am by no means an expert on Buddhist beliefs about reincarnation, but I do know a little about Hinduism. I don't think this is the place to embark on a lengthy account of Hindu beliefs about reincarnation, so I'll keep it short and hopefully succinct.

Their idea is that the soul is actually a part of God. God is seen as the original consciousness, and the individual soul which is thought to be in all humans and animals is a spark of that original consciousness, but separated from the source and somehow or other involved here in the world of matter. In fact, they think the soul is more or less imprisoned in the material world, and has to undergo an almost endless cycle of death and rebirth. The only hope of escape is to attain liberation or nirvana, when the soul will be able to go back to the divine of which it is a a part.

The thing here which is germane to what we were discussing is the fact that they say the soul is the principle of consciousness, and can exist not only in different forms like human and animal, but also exists independently of the body.
Scientifically inclined Hindu thinkers have the idea that the brain is more like a receiver than a generator of consciousness. Nuff said.

Back to brain research - of course you can't induce head trauma in a human being to study it. They do however do this to mice. The correspondence between the mouse model and the human is close enough that they can learn a great deal. But some people would object to this on ethical grounds. I'm not 100% happy about animal experiments, but it's hard to see any means of increasing our knowledge about head trauma without such studies.

But there's actually some very interesting research going on into brain function using human subjects who are given psychedelic substances and then have their brain activity scanned with MRI. In the UK there's at east one major study taking place directed by Doc Robin Carhart-Harris. Some of the results are very interesting (although they don't have much bearing on the origin of consciousness).
Here's a link to an article about his work:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/dr-robin-carhartharris-is-the-first-scientist-in-over-40-years-to-test-lsd-on-humans--and-youre-next-9667532.html

And of course there's a lot of other avenues of brain research being explored in many countries..

 

Doesn't giving subjects a pharmalogical substance and using machines to test the physical interactions it has on brain and it's effects on consciousness fall under your definition of prejudice? Or do you find a discrepancy in generating altered consciousness as oppossed to generating consciousness?


One of the examples of how studies like this have to cater to ethical standards...

 

I don't think I have made myself very clear. I just think it's ridiculous to assume that giving someone LSD and mapping their brain is displaying prejudice. Only a complete idiot would deny that brain activity and consciousness are intimately linked. By altering the brains activity using psychedelics, the subject would experience a change of consciousness. Just as they would if they knocked back a double Jack Daniels. Or took some physical exercise. The fact that chemical changes in the brain affect consciousness doesn't prove that consciousness is generated by the brain.

The thing with the MRI scans though is that by looking at the changed activity in the psychedelic state, they can learn a lot about the normal functioning of the brain.

What is being studied here is the brain and how it works. As I said in a previous post, maybe one day science will be able to prove definitively that consciousness is generated by the brain, and without the brain it simply ceases.

 

I think that would be a good use of psychedelic research, in addition to the therapeutic benefits of various psychedelic plants and chemicals.

 

Absolutely.

If you're interested in what Carhart-Harris has been up to, and what they've found, this vid is really interesting

.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNR4o5JZEi0

 

^^^Those are my reasons I wouldn't consider myself to be militant; well, maybe a little. But moreso, I'm with most of the atheists you have known......I want people to believe(or not believe) whatever feels right for them and helps them find fulfillment.. I simply want people to be happy because, as I said in my quoted post above this one, I believe happiness and smiles are the only things that matter in life. I just hate the hypocrisy and judgment that comes from, and I'm not gonna say "most", but a very large percentage of religious people, of all Abrahamic faiths.

Another thing I'd like to mention, which has nothing to do with either of the posts I quoted, and I'm gonna use Gabby Douglas as an example................It annoys me and/or makes me sad that Gabby Douglas, and people like her, always thank their god for their own triumphs. GABBY DOUGLAS trained, day in and day out, for years on end, to get those gold medals. Not her god. SHE needs to give all of the credit to her coaches, her parents, and, especially, herself. People like her assume their god WANTED them to win, but if that was the case, she wouldn't have had to train for all of those years because her god would've just made it happen. SHE earned those medals. SHE was dedicated enough to train hard enough to win those medals. Sure, some of those beliefs may have helped to motivate her, but she needs to give herself, her trainers, and her friend and family all of the credit, because SHE/they deserve that credit.

 

TNS....a pear is other words in other languages......too....lol

I understand what you mean, though.... .......you quoted me, and I am scratching my head wondering why...I like you, too....LOL

 

I wrote the pear joke, I understand it's a word in other languages as well but this example shows that in the given language, you need to understand the discrepancy of pear and pair ( a mathematical description) and thus it shapes the reality of what the person is saying. This homophone shows perhaps just how limited our language capabilities are, in that we have to rely on the same sound for different meanings. The fact there are so many different languages suggest that spoken and written language is more a result of the immediate environment and culture, thus not as easily descriptive in a universal sense as that of math.

Perhaps the descriptive nature of math breaks down at some point though, as you mentioned in the series you watched at the quantum level it's not applicable.

 

I am sorry, Q. I knew I made a mistake there......It has been a long day.....so far....

Yes, language is limited, but it is all that we have. Some people are not as mathematically minded as other people....the right and left brain hemisphere thing..... I am more about art and creativity, and when I paint, I am not using math...i am using color and feeling.......some people do paint using mathematics....the eyes need to be this certain number mathematically apart or whatever, and they actually measure.....though....
Perhaps....we won't need to speak at all some day....and just read thoughts.....the men in black do this already....lol

I am only half serious. I hope no one can read my mind....

 

I quoted you because you said "not all atheists are combative" and, if I worded my post correctly, you undertand that I want people to be happy..........all people.........and we all have our ways of being happy. The jist of it is, regardless of my hatred of the Abrahamic religions, I have no problem with people being religious, if that TRULY makes them happy and they're with the times and, by "with the times", I mean they don't judge people for believing or not believing in whatever. I'm a "live and let live" person too, I hate those religions because of the hypocricy and the fundamentalism.

And thank you!!! I like you too

 

I find it somewhat comical

a pair of pears is an even number of fruit no matter tha language

 

If you use the word pair or pear, you need to understand the specific language to know what they mean.