Antiwoke

Have small business owners been discriminated against in the past? If this community organization is also concerned about other groups that have been oppressed, I'd say yes. Otherwise, it seems to be pretty narrowly selective.

I find it ironic, though, when right-wingers like De Santis complain about the "woke" cancel culture, and then proceed to cancel any mention of historical facts that might offend white males.

 

So that's the catch? I'd argue everyone's been persecuted in the past, some more than others, that's life. Me, you, billionaires, everybody. Where's the line that determines that you've been sufficiently persecuted to qualify as oppressed?

 

Every person and organization is selective. There are 24 hours in a day you can only do what you can do. By focusing on helping a certain group you fail to help every other group.

 

That's certainly true, but by the same token, it would make little sense to consider every self-interested (or even community-minded) group "woke"--particularly in light of the demonization of the term by the right.

Perhaps this will help.The Promise and Problems of Being Woke I particularly like Obama's criticism of "wokeness", defined as purism on social justice matters.
“This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff,” Obama said. “You should get over that quickly." ... “The world is messy; there are ambiguities. People who do really good stuff have flaws. People who you are fighting may love their kids, and share certain things with you.”

I must confess that my own views and behavior would be considered un-woke by the purists.

• Some of my best friends are racists and MAGA fans. I have them over to my house once a week for a get together. One of them often wore a necklace of confederate flags and used racist language that would cause woke progressives to go into cardiac arrest. He did this, i think mainly to rebel against the woke. But he was complex. He was the kind of friend who would have your back in a fight, and would give you the shirt off of his if you lacked one. During the 2012 election, he had a big Obama sign in his front yard, cuz he couldn't abide Romney. He died recently, and at his memorial service, several African-Americans showed up an eulogized him for the help he gave them--materially and in moral support to overcome addictions. He sponsored a couple of them in AA. His life--the good, the bad, and the ugly--came out at that event.
• Another friend was similarly racist until he became the proud grandfather of three mixed-race grandchildren, from different kids. (Fortunately, he didn't pass his attitudes on to his offspring). He became very close to an African-American son-in-law, and recently vacationed with him and his parents. After the funeral of our other late friend, he began talking about his own racial attitudes, which he attributed to growing up in rural Oklahoma. He said he used to make jokes about blacks and Jews, but had never met one in either category.
  
• I may be the product a similar background. I have no problem with other people's sexual orientation, but I must say I find the pronoun and bathroom stuff bewildering. To my knowledge, I've only known two trans people: one an ex-male, another an ex-female They each went through sex change operations, and interestingly retained an attraction to their previous opposite sex--so they went from hetero to homosexual. I also have no problem with drag queens , although I've never experienced one to my knowledge. I have no problem with drag shows, for those who enjoy them. Not my thing. I do have a problem, though, with exposing kids to drag shows, and I can understand parental opposition to it--although I find politicians who exploit the issue for political purposes to be even more offensive.
• I admire Thomas Jefferson as one of our greatest statesmen and Enlightenment thinkers, although I am appalled by the fact that he had 600 slaves and used one of them, Sally Hemmings, sexually. This, unfortunately, was par for the course for the southern planter aristocracy of the time, of which he was one. He did push for legislation abolishing the slave trade, but I'd still have to rank him as seriously flawed.

As the link I provided says, Jesus wasn't a purist by any means, and the Pharisees were shocked by the company He kept. Lucky for us, He wasn't completely "woke" by modern standards.

 

Can you name a single instance of billionaires or White cisgender Christian males being oppressed?
Or even mildly inconvenienced?

 

Trump, Alex Murdoch--maybe even the Koch brothers, the Mercers, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, and Kim Jong un--may think they've been persecuted, along with most Karens who throw tantrums in restaurants, grocery stores or on airplanes. "Persecution", of course, is somewhat subjective and relative--ranging from killings and beatings to paying some income tax and bad hair days. But I'd really like to be "persecuted" like the billionaires--assuming, of course, that I also get to have their billions . On the other hand, take people who have been denied jobs and services because of their race, sex, or sexual orientation; or paid lower wages or salaries than males or non-minorities for the same work; or told they must carry and deliver the child of their rapist. Or being effectively denied the right to vote by closing voting facilities in certain neighborhoods, etc.
Black voting rights and voter suppression: A timeline https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/
5-egregious-voter-suppression-laws-2021
There are folks serving long sentences in prisons for offenses less serious in their consequences for society than some of the things the billionaires wouldn't get indicted for. That's what I'd call persecution. Witness crime boss Don Trump, who so far is scot free.. Or take the police abuses of minority communities. Police brutality makes many minority groups afraid of law enforcement
What the data say about police brutality and racial bias — and which reforms might work
Report: Black people are still killed by police at a higher rate than other groups
That doesn't usually happen in upscale white neighborhoods. So when it comes to persecution, some seem to be more equal than others.
The way you phrase your question betrays a certain cluelessness that suggests a sheltered existence--the sort of thing "woke" is designed to counteract.

 

Sure, when the government breaks up a company to end a monopoly. Having to operate your business in a way that reduces emissions or onerous restrictions to satisfy workers' health and safety requirements. Being unable to hire the person(s) you want because DEI has been foisted on your company so you have to hire the person of colour rather than the best candidate.

Why do wealthy people kill themselves? They have stress, pressure, difficulty the likes of which I'll probably never know because I'll never own a business or be that wealthy. Obviously I deliberately picked some problems only faced by extremely wealthy and entitled people but still your question is unbelievably naïve.

 

persecute: 1. to harass or punish in a manner designed to injure, grieve, or afflict
specifically : to cause to suffer because of belief;2. to annoy with persistent or urgent approaches (such as attacks, pleas, or importunities).Definition of PERSECUTE

oppress: 1.to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority; 2. to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon.Definition of OPPRESS

Ordinarily,I don't think it's persecution or oppression to regulate business enterprises to protect the public health or safety. Nor do I consider any misfortune a person might experience in life, especially from the consequences of his/her own actions, persecution or oppression. If a business tycoon is stressed because he's afraid of an economic downturn, that's life and if he/she can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
By your interesting use of the terms, we could speak of Lincoln persecuting and oppressing the slave owners by the Emancipation Proclamation, or the Allies oppressing and persecuting the Nazis by preventing their aggression and their mistreatment of the Jews. Certainly, Teddy Roosevelt engaged in lots of persecution and oppression by his trust busting activities. And poor Trump was terrribly abused when his insurrection plans were thwarted.

 

So; using your logic, I should be able to open a lead smelter next to an elementary school, with utter disregard for the consequences, because any attempt to protect the surrounding community constitutes "oppression".
Your response is incredibly sociopathic.

 

You could classify them in that way. I'm glad to see you have sufficient awareness to extrapolate what I was hinting at. I was probing to see just where you draw the line as you didn't respond to that question earlier. Now it feels like we're getting somewhere.

Piobaire asked me two questions, I responded with examples that were more "mild inconvenience" than oppression just to see if we could agree on a meaningful distinction between the two and it appears we can. Seems like I'm splitting hairs here and can't remember where I was going with it right now. Thanks for allowing me time to properly consider and formulate my responses. I have plenty to think about.

 

Maybe unrelated to woke and US politics, but... Alexei Navalny, leader of russia's opposition. Was nearly fatally poisoned and then wrongfully sent to prison for standing up to putin's dictatorship. Just to point out that it can happen. All it takes is stepping on the wrong toes.

 

So maybe we disagree about the specifics of the free market v government regulation part but it seem like we have a common understood definition of woke, and besides where exactly the policy line is drawn, does anyone actually disagree that the woke values are actually the right ones?

 

Anyone who is being treated unfairly shouldn't continue to be treated unfairly no argument there.

The disagreement is on the question of what is unfair treatment and what should be done about it.

 

Is it? Was your definition of woke ambiguous in terms of fairness? I agree there is a question about what to do about it, but that question doesn’t challenge wokeness

 

Yes, take Kendi's assertion that "the only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination. The only remedy to present discrimination is future discrimination." I disagree with that.

I don't like how he states it as if it's fact when it's only his opinion. I don't think he's ever produced studies or real world examples of this working, healing wounds, remedying and one day eliminating whatever discrimination exists if, in fact, that is the goal to begin with.

I'm a New Zealander. The native people are Maori and have been treated poorly in the past and arguably still. They are given benefits including money and reduced entry requirements to universities, just to give two examples, solely because of their race. I don't think that's fair and I'm not even sure we have the same ultimate goal. I'd like to see that stop and everyone be treated equally. Maybe not today. Maybe a culture shift has to happen first or maybe they just don't value higher education as much as other cultures and efforts to try to equalize their numbers are fruitless. There's one such disagreement we could have over what's fair.

 

I guess that I could have become enraged that Bobby Sands was dying on a hunger strike in Long Kesh prison in Ulster and native Irish had been persecuted. I say no. and gave no money to Gerry Adams when he came shaking his cup to America. Did not join a suburban aquantence who traveled to Ulster for a pilgrimage of trouble. ( he did return) Just say No to a life guided by Grivance....No.

Math and History? sorry again. Woke education is about ideology more than acedemics, Honors and Gifted / talented clases are discontinued.

 

But the “only remedy to past discrimination is present discrimination” is not itself more or less woke. Disagreeing with that sentiment is not anti-woke, it’s anti that one take.

By the numbers past discrimination is not in the past; it’s still the present in America. That’s not opinion, it’s math