Another question from an agnostic about the Jews

Greetings,

I hope that you are doing fine today. I am doing fine.

Guess I'll just jump right in. 1 John 2:22-23 (KJV) says,

"(22)Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. (23)Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."

Question: If the Jews deny that Jesus is the Messiah, aren't they antichrists? I ask that because I hear so many Christians say that the Jews are the chosen people of God. How can they be the chosen people and be antichrists at the same time?

And for the record, I do not hate Jews. I ask this question because I would like to hear some answers to it from Christians. Yes I am an agnostic; does that make me an antichrist? I don't think so in my case; maybe I deny Jesus, maybe I don't, but I don't claim to be the chosen of God like the Jews.

So Christians how would you answer this question?

Peace.
nunnies

 

Followers of most religions tend to think they are the chosen ones. There's nothing unique about the claim of the Jews.
In Christianity, it's the 'elect' who get saved. Election seems to equate closely with 'chosen' in this context.

There's also the issue of the Muslims who say JC was only another prophet and God has no son.

I'm not a Christian BTW. Just want to point out that all three western monotheistic religions disagree with each other on those points.

 

your question is like trying to clean clothes in a toilet.

 

and yet these holy clothes are indeed tarnished by a simple toilet, casting doubt onto just how well they were sown and dyed . . .

 

Well, in Christianity "election" is based on faith, not race. So how can a race be the chosen people and antichrists?

The Muslims might not believe that God has "children" but they believe in Jesus and they believe that he is the Messiah.

But again, how can a race be the chosen people and antichrists?

 

they can't and Muslims just mealy mouth the acceptance of Jesus or the idea of universal anything - when a Muslim convert you still aren't free from derision, division and potential getting your clit blown clean off if your of a rival sect. They are the religion of peace like cops are 'peace officers.' They actually (at least as much so as Christists) are the religion of war.

 

Some Christians such as Saint Augustine believed that the elect are predestined by God.

Muslims do not accept Jesus as the Messiah. They say he was a prophet which is not he same thing at all.

 

Some Muslims worry for being caught by Jesus (the son of God) pulling their pants down for a prostation. Jews never worry.

 

Peace BlackBillBlake,

Well, this is getting away from the subject, but in Christianity you can't disbelieve in Jesus and be one of the elect. The Bible says that the unbelieving will burn in the fire. So if you are one of the elect, you must believe in Jesus. So "election" is not based on race in Christianity. You must believe to be one of the elect.

And as for the Muslims, their Holy Book (the Holy Qur'an) plainly refers to Jesus as the Messiah:

"When the angels said: O Mary, surely Allah gives thee good news with a word from Him (of one) whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, worthy of regard in this world and the Hereafter, and of those who are drawn nigh (to Allah)," (Holy Qur'an 3:45)

"They take their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah, son of Mary. And they were enjoined that they should serve one God only — there is no god but He. Be He glorified from what they set up (with Him)! " (Holy Qur'an 9:31.)

Peace,
nunnies

 

OK, the main dividing point amongst Islam, Judaism, and various sub-sects of Christianity with the core tenants of Christianity is the divinity of Jesus.
Christianity holds that Jesus was/is God incarnate, all of the others accept Jesus as a prophet/wise man/ fill in the blank, BUT only core Christianity claims he IS God.
That is the first, foremost and most important point of contention as it is the only point of real value and import in Christianity.


It is also important to bear in mind that in the Bible it speaks of the "Spirit" of the anti-christ and it speaks of "The" anti-christ, two VERY different things and important to understasnd the distinction.
There have been many who were said to have the "spirit" of the anti-christ; Ramses, Alexander the Great, Nero, Hitler, but they were not "THE" anti-christ, a specific personage.

So the verse in question is referring to the spirit of anti-christ, not a specific person or group, and the denying Christ is in reference to denying the divinity of Jesus


You can cite all manner of philosophical, theological, historical and other differences, but when it's all boiled down to the very kernel, the difference is always about if Jesus is God incarnate.

 

plus remember, the Jews are expecting the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, not some sacrificial lamb.

 

Peace,

Well, I'm not a Muslim nor a Christian but I am familiar with the Scriptures of each.

The Bible contradicts the idea that Jesus is God incarnate. Two examples of this are Mark 13:32 and John 14:28:

Mark 13:32: "(32)But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father."

This plainly tells us that Jesus is not the Father if the Father knows the day and hour and Jesus does not.

John 14:28 plainly differentiates between Jesus and the Father with Jesus saying that the Father is GREATER than he is. You can't be less than something and equal to it at the same time:

John 14:28: "...because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I."

And as far as the spirit of antichrist versus a person who is an antichrist, the NIV rendering of 1 John 2:22-23 shows that the verses in question plainly refer to a person who is an antichrist:

"(22)Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. (23)No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also."

These verses do not say anything about "the divinity of Jesus" as you claim. That is something that you or someone else has made up.

Peace.
nunnies

 

That's why I don't understand the Christian reverence of the Jews that I hear so much.

Peace,
nunnies

 

Uhhmmm, who da fuck do you think "The Christ" refers to?

you're thinking too hard about it and getting in your own way.

may I suggest you investigate paradoxes.


boy, just wait till he gets to the book of Acts when Jesus tells them that he and the Holy Spirit are the same, kids heads gonna explode...

 

"The Christ" does not mean "God." It means "the Anointed One."

And Jesus didn't claim to that he and the Holy Spirit are the same.

 

I know what "The Christ" means.

John 14:16-18
Jesus is specifically and clearly talking about the Holy Spirit, "The Comforter"
last verse;
“I will not leave you comfortless; I will come to you"

seems pretty crystal clear when read in full context.
and it reads the same in all interpretations.

Now I have no desire to get mired in yet another lame and fruitless debate over Biblical topics that are as clear as day with someone whom appears to be yet another reading the Bible with the sole intention of trying to discredit it.

Whatever floats your boat.

said it here before, will say it again.
Christianity is a belief system centered in and confirmed by personal experience with God/Christ and absent such a personal experience any understanding or comprehension of the areas you are delving into will be met with frustration and claims of "bullshit!"

Why is that so fucking absolutely hard for some people to comprehend or accept!!!!!!!

It's like trying to explain the feeling of sex to a virgin, if you ain't done it, you haven't got a clue.
Every time I read these threads by clueless people it makes me think of the lame assed movies that try to depict what LSD is like, they always fail and NEVER even come close to the reality of the experience.

I know there are a lot of those who decry Christianity as bullshit, yet believe some of the most outlandish and ludicrous things with far fewer sources of support that Christianity has.

 

you're all nuts - every person knows something given birth must come from woman - god is not a father but a mother. sure it takes two to tango so the father impregnates but the rest of the gestation of creation is up to the mother and the mother is the closest we have on this planet to god. all this father god stuff was written by misogynists; the shitty people that circumcise females, consider them chattels, rape them and then go around lauding war and taking slaves - that's the people who wrote the bible.

 

Your eco-feminist visions are perhaps commendable, but as of yet not established to the will of recognition by the ruling fact of performing virtuous co-operation (let it be said form of service in the community). Eco-feminism wished that Christ be a woman, that the end would be absolved from the oncoming disaster that men are hopelessly on a route towards. True equality of human rights between men and women is achievable. Nevertheless, in the end, it was the annals of listing the original men in the genealogy of who beget who for the scripture as it were of the "Fatherland".

This means the master/slave relation seems to be uninhibited to the need for understanding in academic circles with and off the computer communication. Masters do fulfill the subjective consciousness for the YIng as opposed to the Yang. It is not the obvious note for any just or honest appraisal of recognition, but a standard of judgment for the priority of explanation for mutual understanding of progress. The lord chose the future for mankind to be assured of a goodness that no one selfishly determines at others.

 

it may be too wide a brush, to tar all of them, but for the most part, yes, that is one of the major problems with christianity, its precursors and decendents.

 

her argument is logical. your counter argument is not.
none of which relates to jewish ethnicity,
and only to judaism as a belief, in as much as its being the precursor to christianity.