Animist or schizo?

I love it! Who's the dude who keeps walking back and forth behind her, apparently paying no attention to her? Reminds me of a lecture I attended back in my college days where the janitor came out and started mopping the floor while the prof was speaking--not in tongues, but might as well have been! Here in Oklahoma, at Oral Roberts U, they have a course on speaking in tongues. I've often wondered if you have to learn it, is it really the same as having the Holy Spirit beam it to you as a divine gift?

 

"speaking in tongues." Ridiculous on the face of it. What does it mean? What does the blabber signify? Teaching it in a college? To what---make it sound like it means something significant and is deity inspired? You know, I just don't get religion on any level. I don't wish to advocate for the elimination of such practices. I mean- I guess it makes people feel good to have faith that something exists beyond this observable plane of existence. So -called pious humans have again and again proven so fallible and --yes --evil --and have taken advantage of other humans in so many ways. Taking peoples money--having sex with children--proclaiming themselves the arbiters of all that's holy, turning people into obedient dog-like cultists,etc,etc,. I maintain that ALL humans only have to learn the maxim--"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"-----and ALL common problems of humanity would END. No flapping of the jaws uttering nonsensical bullshit--no getting fucked metaphorically or literally--no more slaughter of non believers or believers in different interpretations of religious text / beliefs. I also mean--who the hell doesn't wish for a glorious and never ending after life floating through some wonderful existence? Maybe such exists----but I'm NOT taking the word of humans for it.

 

Fortunately, not all religion is like that. We don't speak in tongues or roll on the ground in my Methodist Sunday school, and the folks there are pretty progressive and open-minded. I have friends who found Jesus as a lifeline out of alcoholism, and others who are able to find meaning in what would otherwise be a bleak, impoverished existence. And although I know atheists who seem to get along just fine without it, I doubt that everyone can. The atheists I know believe in objective moral codes that are as difficult as gods to explain.

To the best of our knowledge, religion has been around for millennia, leading me to suspect it must have some evolutionary function. In fact, I think it has several--not all of them good in a moral sense, but serving a variety of human needs. "At its core, religion is a system of beliefs, values, and practices that typically revolves around a higher power or ultimate truth. It’s a framework that helps us make sense of the world, offering explanations for life’s biggest questions and providing guidance on how to navigate the complexities of existence." Religion's Profound Impact on Human Behavior Explored All of the major schools of psychology have their takes on why people are religious. Cognitive psychologists, currently much in vogue, emphasize its usefulness in cognitive mapping, and the human tendencies toward patternicity (aka, apophenia)--perceiving patterns where there aren't any; and agenticity--attributing agency to ambiguous objects in the environment.
https://dangerousintersection.org/2009/06/14/michael-shermer-talks-patternicity-and-agenticity/
Psychology: How we form beliefs | Nature
Why People Believe Invisible Agents Control the World | Scientific American
From an evolutionary perspective, both contribute to human survival. The ability to detect patterns has been crucial in spotting relationships in the environment, even though sometimes we overdo it. And the tendency to perceive agency in ambiguous situations helps us to avoid possible danger when, for example, we encounter something that could be a log or a crocodile. The empiricists who hold out for more evidence are soon eliminated from the gene pool, leaving the credulous and their descendants to carry on. Depth psychology (psychoanalysis) focuses on the role of religion in coping with existential anxieties and ego defense mechanisms (denial, projection, sublimation, etc.) et.apa.org/record/1939-01547-001#:~:text=The spontaneous growth of much religion, the primitive,deeper unconscious forces have free and powerful play. Freud, for example, emphasized the Oedipus conflict and collective guilt over repressed thoughts about one's parents. (See Moses and Monotheism; Totem and Taboo). Then there is behaviorism, which stresses learned behavior from trusted information sources like parents, teachers, clergy, society in general, etc.Last, but not least, is Viktor Frankl's Logotherapy focused on he quest for meaning: a sense of significant purpose. Frankl thinks the quest for meaning is the most important human need. It got him thru a Nazi concentration camp. Religion defines life's meaning--which to me has its pros and cons, but for many folks is an advantage. I suspect that religion
Skinnerian Criticism of Religion
https://www.cambridge.org/core/jour...-religions/01B053B0294890F8CFACFB808FE2A0EFMy earliest memory of anything was in first grade at age 5: a nun's lecture on original sin. Besides these psychological factors, there are also actors who have a vested interest in proselytizing religion: shamans, priests, rulers, elites. And there is society in general, for which religion is an important means of solidarity and control. Durkheim, Elementary Forms of Religious Life.

In my own case, I was raised a Catholic, experienced the cross-pressures from Calvinist friends who told me I would go to hell if I remained one, and my own church who told me I'd go there if I left--the classic case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't". I drifted away in college, only to return after a "born again" conversion experience triggered by Gen.1:27 (humans created in God's image and likeness. I don't take Genesis literally, but the cascading thoughts put me in touch with the world's major religions and some minor ones, ending in the teachings and example of Jesus. In terms of explanations, ones that I've considered is that: a. I'm psychotic; b. some supernatural force is sending me messages from the great beyond; c. these thoughts are dredged up from my unconscious. The last mentioned seem the most plausible to me. Anyhow, it's made going to WalMart a religious experience, and it doesn't seem to be interfering with my marriage, work and social life. I keep it stored in my X-files for further consideration. I do feel a little sheepish sometimes. Last week, a guy asked me if I did anything fun over the weekend. I had to hold myself back from saying: "yes, i attended two really great bible study sessions!" People might think I'm weird. I also take fellowship with a group of atheists, and have come to understand that they're pretty much the same as my co-religionists in the Methodist, First Christian and Catholic groups I also attend.

You mention that humans only have to learn the maxim--"do unto others as you would have them do unto you"-----and ALL common problems of humanity would END. I'd add another teaching of Jesus: love thy neighbor as thyself for the love of God. These two principles--reciprocal altruism and empathy are found in non-human social animals, and IMO provide the evolutionary foundation of all human ethical/moral systems. If people would only do those things, we'd have paradise on earth. But if they do the opposite, it will become like the other place: a war of all against all. Evolution is a messy process though, and world religions have spread because of beliefs that caught on for dubious reasons. Prof. Bart Ehrman credits the spread of Christianity to its exclusivity: our way or the highway. Like other religions, Christianity has become cluttered with improbable beliefs that amount to superstition. Toxic religion, past and present, has been and is a major threat to human survival. Article Detail - International Journal of Advanced Research

 

I admire your intellect ,Tish. My people sent me to church and Sunday school. SENT is the operative. None of them went , so perhaps I felt that if it was so important for me to be subjected to the lessons of that which were being imparted--then why didn't THEY go ? I don't know----- that was 75--80 years ago so who knows what and when I took what I thought was the single most important item and felt the rest was time wasted? Do unto others-etc was --I think---quite enough for me. Also when one discovers in humanity the juxtaposition of what you mentioned--altruism and empathy and their opposites--avarice and cruelty--well--who is running this place?? I guess we are.

I am neither a theist nor an atheist. I can not and do not presume to know the answer / s to the nature of existence. I, like many of us , have had some great / fantastic times in my life right along with some bad / crummy times. My time is short now--I don't feel too bad at how my life has gone. It could always have been a lot worse. I have some smart, kind hearted, honest kids, so I did my job that way.

 

That's the important thing!

 

Thank you.

 

I don't know why I didn't see this thread years ago. I would have answered it then. As Tishomingo said, it is not a simple matter. Even in the Siberian cultures where the word shaman originates, and where being called by the spirits to become a shaman literally involves what we would call a nervous breakdown, or in some cases something that doctors diagnose as epilepsy, a shaman is called and they determine whether the person is actually experiencing a spirit calling or is mentally or physically ill.

In the West, we have largely divorced ourselves from such things, and psychologists and philosophers alike have argued that sanity is determined by social constructs. Someone who speaks to, or feels spirits today, is very likely to be diagnosed as mentally ill. and it does happen that many such people are prone to such things as depression. In my post on Philippine shamanism I talked about how such spiritual ways are diagnosed by modern medicine as a mental illness. I have a brother-in-law who was treated much of his life for mental illness, but I identified his situation as a spirit calling, and am very confident that this was the case. Then there is my half-sister-in-law who one night started speaking in the voice of her grandmother on her mom's side in the Visayan language, even though she speaks Tagalog and did not know Visayan, which was the language of her long deceased grandmother. Shortly after, she was diagnosed with epilepsy. It was at this time that I told my father-in-law about the shamanic traditions, which made sense as he came from a family of healers. In Native communities, young medicine people who are off the reservation and living away from the medicine men and their communities are especially prone to suicide and depression, as they are away from people that 1.) understand their situation, 2.) can teach them and help them as needed, and 3.) are immersed in a culture that is more spiritual and has different and less material values. These situations are probably more extreme than what the original poster was talking about. Medicine people, traditional healers, and shamans are literally chosen by the spirits to do the services they provide.

But if you can sense the presence of spirits, see ghosts, etc. and you are concerned about your mental health, the fact that you are not necessarily chosen by the spirits to sacrifice and serve a community at a larger scale (i.e. experiencing a spirit calling), does not make it any easier. I would say there are things to consider----such as is there a history of clairvoyance or seeing ghosts in your family? Or another way is if there is objective and external validation for your experiences. One of the best examples I can think of offhand was with my wife--a story I have told many times: She saw a boy by the basement fireplace of the house my brother had just bought. A month later a neighbor told my brother that a 12 year old boy committed suicide by the basement fireplace. Another time, my wife entered a restaurant that was in an old house, and immediately told the host that there was a ghost here. She confirmed it and told us that the kitchen staff does not like to work late because weird things happen. After dinner she let us walk around the restaurant and upstairs into a widow's tower (or whatever they were called in old houses). My wife said that this was her favorite place and liked to stay here. A number of years later the restaurant was bought out by an Indian Restaurant, and I metnioned this to them. They too were aware of the ghost and they said that the security camera picks up blurry or almost clear images of something, at the foot of the stairs to the tower my wife said was her favorite spot to hang out.

On the other hand, you might be like me. I could never see ghosts and spirits or anything supernatural (I did see a dwende or little person in the Philippines once, but at the time I couldn't believe it, and it was more out of the corner of my eye). But I have always felt a sense of sacredness and a feeling of the supernatural just under the surface while in nature. I never considered that as being crazy. It wasn't until I started participating in indigenous ceremonies that I actually experienced the supernatural and the nonphysical. I have many stories to tell there which Western people would think I am either making them up or that I am crazy, but the natives who participate in such ceremonies know.

My wife, by the way, is a Philippine healer, but she never went through the nervous breakdown (according to Western medicine) that my stepdaughter, brother-in-law and half sister-in-law went through. But her gift was given to her when she was still a young child by her grandmother, shortly after she died,when my wife sat with her body, and was so young she did not really understand what death was.

If you are experiencing more than just what most people who are sensitive in such ways are going through, something along the lines of a spirit calling, you could read about such things in shamanic cultures in the classic on shamanism by Eliades: Shamanism, Archaic Techniques of Ecstacy.

Finally, I have mentioned epilepsy a number of times. A study about 10 years ago determined that much of the epileptic seizure occurs in a part of the brain that is actually associated with spiritual experiences.