Anarchist, I wanna hear your alternatives.

Discussion in 'Protest' started by Share the Warmth, Jun 3, 2007.

  1. rebelfight420

    rebelfight420 Banned

    Then it's libertanianism
     
  2. And, erm.... well ahhh your qualifications for saying this are ...?????

    I mean exactly where has this happened because obviously you can think of loads of examples where anarchists post 1960 have pulled down capitalist states and then just when the anarchists thought they could build the new communities there ya go up pops a fascist Junta !!!
    Erm no I really dont think anarchists will suddenly drop their action against capitalist organisations because they would be afraid of this - If you are thinking of the French revolution well they werent anarchists they built a republic - same with the Russians - no youre dreaming bad dreams - been watching too much mad max and eating those big bullshit sandwiches your government is fond of force feeding the people with ! you seriously need to research the history of the Russian revolution -
    1) they werent anarchists
    2) Lenin was elected to power by the politbeauro
    3) they didnt set out to establish communism -or anarchism
    4) Lenin was a socialist
    5) They intended to establish socialism with a government to socialise the people toward anarchism

    so - you dont have a leg to stand on !

    The truth is that anarchists dont define the anticapitalist movement - nobody knows what will happen after - but dont confuse anarchists with bullshit libertarians who are merely exporting the American dream of irresponsible capitalism !!!!

    he is naive, but certainly less of an idiot than someon who believes that capitalism can still aid our survival rather than prevent it !
     
  3. Zoomie

    Zoomie My mom is dead, ok?

    Uh huh. And you believe that person to be me simply because I live in the US. NOW who's profiling? You know shit about me.
     
  4. YankNBurn

    YankNBurn Owner

    Hell this whole anarchy deal sounds good. I can shoot who I want when I want and all I have to do is worry about more people comming that I can shoot, hell yes. I think I would start up a hunting resort going after the alleged ultimate game (man) and everytime more enemies came we would make more profits selling guided hunts. I would not share my money because I would not have to. If I desired more land I would just take it and unless you had greater firepower or greater skills you could not stop me.


    Who gets to say what job is really a job, perhaps I can become self employed as a tree watcher or a dirt construction engineer? Just turn in my BS hours and get my free check.

    Seems like the people who will stem best from this anarchy is those who did not wish to actually work and want what others have worked for. So instead of anarchy why not call it Lazi-ass-gimme peoples goverment?
     
  5. Sign Related

    Sign Related The Don Killuminati

    First of all that isnt even funny it is intolerant and prejuduced. Isnt one one of the foundations of anarchism personal liberty? So you wont allow public expression of religon some free country you are!

    ^^^Personal liberty? They can still practice in private. To liberate the mind would be better for the ppl by banding public expression of religion and those certain books. Religion is harsh on the mind of a person to where it cripples the mind of that person. I want more folks free from that. More liberty of the mind would make a more perfect and truer society.


    You still have not answered my question. Why would someone want a laborus job like a coal miner when he could get paid the same in retail or a less difficult job?Also why would people feel the need to start bessinesses or become successful when they get compensated the same amount?

    ^^^Ha ppl would do what they always wanted to do in working for equil pay. They'd get to switch jobs or bisnesses for other jobs or businesses just to see how it is all for equil pay. Equilism would be great I tell you. If a difficult job is where their heart is, then they'd do it still. I'd rather have ppl work a job because they like it rather than work a job they dont like just because they like the pay. I'm sure other ppl would agree.

    I guess that is why they would get shot if they pray outside?

    ^^^They may if an atheist is lurking about. I'd doubt any retaliation from ppl that pray, but you never know.


    So what consitutes a crime worthy of death or will you allow citizens to kill because they dont like a person?

    ^^^Every violation to a person could be worthy of death by that person violated. Only the strong and smart would survive. Dont fuck with someone and you more than likely wont get killed in return. We know the rules. We all know there be some ppl that just dont like some ppl. Best thing to do is protect yourself at all times with keeping weapons near by on your very person so you can try not getting killed in North America.
     
  6. earthmother

    earthmother senior weirdo

    Actually that's NOTHING like the existing police force. You can see "peace keepers" at work at your next national Rainbow Gathering if you don't get it. Ya know, sometimes a person is confronted with others causing them trouble and they simply CAN't handle it by themselves. This is generally the case when someone calls the cops. Some people don't WANT to have to carry a gun daily for emergencies, and EVERYONE should be given the benefit of the doubt in a crisis situation. Hey, maybe someone just had too much to drink and they actually are NOT a horrible person to be gunned down.

    Anarchy does not = a violent society.

    And some people LIKE being "poor". Not everyone is all about money and posessions. And there is not always a job for someone with limited skills. There are people out there who are not capable of holding a job for any number of reasons. Not everyone is going to be the same, even in a "perfect" world.
     
  7. I think some people's definitions of anarchism are getting a bit twisted (namely you Sign Related). Yes, anarchism is open to many interpretations and there are many different types of anarchism (very comparable to religion oddly enough). But at it's base anarchism is about dismantling social hierarchies and increasing personal liberty by giving the decision making power back to the people. And no, I'm not talking about representative democracies like in the U.S. where people elect leaders to make decisions for them, I'm talking about DIRECT DEMOCRACY, where people vote in a concensused based style (in other words, reducing the most amount of dissagreement between various parties) on issues that affect them.

    Basically the golden rule of anarchy is "you can do whatever you want as long as you don't affect someone elses right to do whatever they want". No man has the right to own or make decisions over another man's life. The ultimate goal of anarchism is to challenge all authority and power structures, and to destroy those institutions that cannot prove the legitimacy of that power.
    Power in itself can't be destroyed, but it can be shared out among the population, and that is the kind of society anarchists are trying to create. A decentralised society where people have control over their own lives.

    As for things such as economy, police force, jobs... My personal opinion is that communities choose what works best for them.

    Although I acknowledge that competition is a part of human nature, I don't think it has any bigger importance than cooperation and I think it's really capitalism that encourages competition because in a capitalist society, wealth is power and greed pays. That's why anarchists advocate a society based more on cooperation, where people work together to fulfill individual or collective goals.

    If you want a somewhat detailed picture of what an anarchist society would look like, read Ursula K. Leguin's "The Disposessed". It's a really inspiring book and it paints a very accurate picture of what an anarchist society would look like.
     
  8. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Does being led automatically mean suffering? On a basical level, we were once led to form social groups, and as a result, many of us didn't have to worry nearly so much about where our next meals was coming from. Doesn't sound much like suffering to me.

    I'm always kinda reminded of that South Park skit where the hippies are talking about how they're going to change the world, and then basically describe the world exactly as it is but then refuse to acknowledge it ("can't you imagine a society where people live together and, like, provide services for each other?" "yeah, it's called a town" "no way man, you obviously haven't been to college yet")

    I also find ronald's version of anarchy really funny. Anarchists are great, and anyone you cite that isn't great thus cannot be a proper anarchist by default. That's not ideology, that's just PR.

    I think anarchists are potentially a very good thing, as long as they never achieve the goals they think they have. Encouraging people to question authority is a good idea, but as has been said above, getting rid of that authority doesn't make people free, it just hands control over to whoever has the biggest stick and the will to use it.

    The term used above "legitimacy of power" is, I think, incredibly important. You can't have freedom if there is no-one who has the power to stop those who would take it away from you. I'm sure some people would love you to believe that, in their new society, we would all be good people and have no reason to steal, but no-one has a reason now, and the dude telling you it is probably mooching off you and sleeping on your couch from the word go, so...
     
  9. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    Religion isn't "needed" now. And yet it still stands. What makes you think anyone would "need" astral projection?



    So basically, you're talking about meritocracy. That's fine, I guess, although that's basically what we used to have and it led to what we have now.

    Also, I'm interested to know re a later point following on from this: what if there's a job that needs doing, but no-one wants to do it? Where's the incentive for that to get done? I mean, it's great to be doing what you've always wanted to, but what's to stop you ending up with a society of musicians, artists and poets who can't wire a plug and have to wade through accumulating uncollected garbage to get to the non-working telephone to complain about the lack of maintainence to all of their public services?

    So justice for the strong and/or popular (i.e. those with strong friends)? Essentially this means that someone who is physically weak and/or has poor social skills is at the mercy of the mob and has no real recourse unless you bring about some kind of arbitrary system of enforcement for those people. Do I smell bacon?
     
  10. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    We did. Apparently people don't know what's good for them.

    What if you're wrong though? Isn't it better for people to fight over money to buy stuff with than over arms to kill each other with?

    The reason people defend the Western system is that it caters for aspects of human nature which are unappealing but which seem to prevail. If you believe that that's wrong, and that actually the Western system exacerbates or even creates those aspects of human nature, I guess I can't change your mind, and I wouldn't really want to. Faith in humanity is hard to come by when you look at the evidence.

    Fixed that for ya ;)
     
  11. Sign Related

    Sign Related The Don Killuminati

    Religion isn't "needed" now. And yet it still stands. What makes you think anyone would "need" astral projection?

    ^^^ppl dont need astral projection, they need to learn about it though because it's a dirty secret behind religions concerning astral projectors and their astral projections.



    So basically, you're talking about meritocracy. That's fine, I guess, although that's basically what we used to have and it led to what we have now.

    Also, I'm interested to know re a later point following on from this: what if there's a job that needs doing, but no-one wants to do it? Where's the incentive for that to get done? I mean, it's great to be doing what you've always wanted to, but what's to stop you ending up with a society of musicians, artists and poets who can't wire a plug and have to wade through accumulating uncollected garbage to get to the non-working telephone to complain about the lack of maintainence to all of their public services?


    ^^^some of the ppl with no other skills or talents would want to find some job to work just so they can start getting the benifits of equilism. They'd be the ones that would valunteer to work the job no one would want to work if those kinds exist.

    So justice for the strong and/or popular (i.e. those with strong friends)? Essentially this means that someone who is physically weak and/or has poor social skills is at the mercy of the mob and has no real recourse unless you bring about some kind of arbitrary system of enforcement for those people. Do I smell bacon?


    ^^^But they could just hire a mercenary to get justice.
     
  12. I think that is a more truthful statement. There has never been anarchy so we can only assume and theorize the result.

    I don't know about you, but I'm not about to risk the fate of humanity on an experiment. Let's see anarchy work in small isolated states first before we even imagine a complicated world of billions operating under this system.
     
  13. Do we know if we don't need religion? I have no use for it, but I can't speak for my neighbors. Do we know what a world without religion would look like? No, we can theorize. I kind of like my vision of a religion free world where we concentrate on the now, but this vision is tainted by my personality and the knowledge I've gathered, itself a highly subjective process.

    The truth is, none of us know what is right for the world. I've found flaws in everyone's vision of a better tomorrow, especially my own. Too much of these dreams as based on subjective theory, and not concrete truths.

    Then again, what is a concrete truth?

    We shall all continue to argue and struggle with each other and through this struggle a balance occurs that holds us all together. That is the beauty of the modern world, it actually works. Or it's been working for awhile. Regardless of what other problems we have, we are submicroscopic beings on and infinitely small planet capable of scratching the surface of a universe bigger beyond the imagination of men living a hundred years ago.

    I'd like to continue living in whatever way makes it possible to continue this level of development of ideas and technology, get off this cramped planet (many of us will stay of course) before we destroy it, and buy ourselves more time.

    Democracy and capitalism seem to really suck right now, but it's really a chrysalis stage from which will emerge a more evolved humanity.

    That's my theory on capitalism, it's a means to an end none of us can clearly see yet. As technology and ideas develop, the lens through which our species sees the universe becomes clearer and clearer.

    If anarchy threatens that developing process, thrusts us into a state of disorganized peace, it is the biggest threat to mankind ever conceived. The dinosaurs did not last forever here, and neither will we. Eternity lies out in the night sky among the stars, in other far off galaxies, not this planet.
     
  14. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.

    And what if I don't want to learn about it?

    Also, why shouldn't I be able to express my religious beliefs publicly? Talk is cheap. Maybe you'd prefer that it wasn't.


    I don't think you're actually listening. I'm not talking about people with no skills of talents. I'm talking about work which no-one would want to do. Suppose everyone has skills and talents that just have nothing to do with that job. You still need someone to do it, but if someone's going to get the same reward regardless of the job they do, they'll do something they like doing, won't they.


    Wow, you thought of everything! :rolleyes:

    The problem that I'm trying desperately to make you see is that, under the current system, justice is meant to be for all. It might not always work that way, but that is at least the intention. Justice is not meant to be for the rich, the popular or the strong; it's meant to be for everyone. I want a society where my safety and freedom isn't dependent on me hiring fucking mercenaries. And I'd hope I'm not alone in that.

    Why would you want a system like this? It's gross.
     
  15. SelfControl

    SelfControl Boned.


    If you look at all the societies that have existed over the centuries, the one constant, and the thing a lot of people overlook when constructing their visions of tomorrow, is people. Any system that relies on people changing is flawed, unless you're willing to reward people for changing*, and even then it'll be a massive uphill struggle. It is, for want of a better word, cheating to blame aspects of human nature that have been documented for millenia on a particularly ideology or system. Greed, fear and stupidity are not a product of capitalism, because they exist everywhere, both in humans and in "lower" life. So you have a choice: hammer away at people hoping they'll change to fit your system, or build your system around that greed, fear and stupidity, or better yet, use them to fuel it (see: cigarette duty and the NHS).

    The problem with anarchism as most understand it is that it ignores these factors, or at most regards them as inconveniences to be removed (see Sign Related's hopefully ad hoc law enforcement substitute), and that we built our society from anarchy in the way that we did because of how people are, not by changing them. If you want to unite people, you either have to make it worth their while (appealing to greed), make the alternative seem much much worse (appealing to fear) or make them think it'll get them rich and laid and respected (appealing to their stupidity; see also: viral marketing, the entire fashion industry, etc.). And if I'm honest, I'm not sure I want it any other way, because that would involve trying to change who we are as a race, to make us simpler and easier to goven, and I don't think I'm really comfortable with that.


    * Like by not firing the gun you have to their head.
     
  16. You make a great point when you make notice of the things we commonly refer to as human nature, and how so far no government is able to change these behaviors in mass quantities of individuals, but in all honesty, I think that humans, being self aware and having the ability to consciously change themselves, do have a responsibility to use their awareness and change themselves to be better equipped to live in harmony with others. A human who is not using his awareness to change himself, to react to situations around him with the end result being to protect his own well being and the well being of humans around him, is not living up to his full potential as a human being.

    The key to unlocking the dream is in finding a way to awaken the conscious mind of mass amounts of people in a short span of time so they can really understand and appreciate a system for why it works rather than just following it out of fear.

    If a large percentage of the population were to become completely conscious and aware of the world around them, and really begin to appreciate and understand it, I don't think the need for laws would really exist.

    In this way I think that ultimately a state of anarchy can exist at some point in the future, distant it may be. But the key is to discover a way to wake everyone up at the same time, simultaneously clear heads of all values instilled from birth that are obstacles to a harmonious and globally aware existence, and have people live in this manner.

    In this new state of mind, we live to make others healthy and happy (which is ultimately self fulfilling as well, both for the feeling it creates inside us and for the fact that others will help us in return) and all understand the need for technological advances. We would all do our part to become the most helpeful and efficient individuals we can. We wouldn't live for our neighbors because we're told to, we'd live for them because we WANT to.

    I can understand how anarchy can work, but the trick is getting us to a state of awakened consciousness where we can be ready to enter the state of freedom we call anarchy. Without that awakening, of people becoming fully conscious of the system they are living in, in large numbers, anarchy would be a fruitless endeavor, as we would just return to the familiar safety of capitalism.

    Hell, democracy could even work if we had such an awakening and our wealthy would truly understood the natural responsibility on them to use their excess wealth to help the less unfortunate and to benefit their own species in the process.

    It's all about awareness. Conscious awareness of the world around you, using science, philosophy, and other useful human constructs our systems have given us.

    That is what I mean by crysalis, a period of time where most humans are not aware of the big picture around them. There are many reasons for this, starting with humans being too hungry to care about a world beyond their hungry, humans having difficulty with social interactions and therefore having trouble grasping anything beyond their problems, human beings distracted in general (like thoughtlessly subscribing to a system) for any reason. Most of are distracted from really understanding the big picture.

    That's what the hippie movement was about, to a degree. Mind expansion from pot and LSD to allow one to throw down all those self imposed barriers we put up to distract ourselves with and, view the universe through a fresh lens.

    That was the theory anyway, but for many reasons it did not catch on. Personally I would say it's because people started using TOO MANY drugs, and introducing new drugs (not to the world but to the movement) such as painkillers and cocaine, and were no longer expanding their minds but instead creating a new distraction that needed to be fed to blind themselves (consciously or subconsciously) to the anxiety of thinking about how responsible we really are for each other as humans.

    Who can say for certain, but for whatever reasons (though I believe mind of course) acid did not work out quite like it was intended to. I think that maybe the movement was a step in the right direction: putting the mind in a severely altered state in order to free it.

    Anyway, that was somewhat of a tangent but I do ultimately believe that mankind has the power to free himself, understand his responsibility, and do something about it. I just don't trust that it can or will happen instantaneously by such a crude maneuver as the tearing down of our civilization as to fit the ambitions of a possibly (probably) misinformed minority.. We must be more careful and thoughtful about it. We're dealing with humanity here!
     
  17. Breakxeggs

    Breakxeggs Member

    I would jump into this but I don't want another argument.
     
  18. Dr Phibes

    Dr Phibes Banned

    These people will characterise anarchism as being bad, and you know why?

    They are afraid to try new things. The most adventurous they get is in trying a new ride at a theme park. People like Ynk n Burn have no interest whatsoever in politics. They sound like someone who is a low income pleb reciting some shit their plebby dad told them ! Zoomie - I remember you from a while back when I used to post here a year ago - sorry to see youre still getting dug in the ribs by anarchists

    And the so-called anarchists here are actually not really representative at all of anarchists who are serious about their intent, which is simply a revolution that has the weight of truth within the arguments. Only those who speak the truth will win an argument, and do you know why? because if you lie then get caught lying once nobody can trust you again. Lying and election rigging and corruption is the capitalist way

    Anarchists realised that if they tell the truth always, then sooner or later they are sure to be found out !
     
  19. Breakxeggs

    Breakxeggs Member

    I might have to come back.. because Mr. Misfits here seems to think that Anarchy would work...
     
  20. Dr Phibes

    Dr Phibes Banned

    you wont like it Breaxxeggs, you havent the stamina or wit and will just end up getting some kind of heart problems, so just smile and walk away backing out and bowing gracefully - dont turn round because I have been known to fuck people for a lot less than calling me Mr misfits
     

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