America before the Europeans

Discussion in 'History' started by Meagain, Aug 3, 2013.

  1. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    There were people and culture in the land before europeans. What was not in the land was a congruent enforceable proprietary model.
  2. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    The Pilgrims actually settled in land cleared and farmed by the Indians that was now deserted due to disease.

  3. BlackBillBlake

    BlackBillBlake resigned HipForums Supporter

  4. pensfan13

    pensfan13 Senior Member

    im confused by the sentence... the word was means it was in the past and not present but its immediately followed by the word now which is present and current.
  5. BeachBall

    BeachBall Nosey old moo

    This, I think, is the key to any such historical discussion as this.

    No person alive today is responsible for, or implicated in, the actions of any person living 400 years ago; and the idea that history can somehow provide solutions to contemporary issues, or tell you who is "in the right" and who is "in the wrong" is frankly absurd.

    We are where we are; and the only three questions which matter are:

    1. Is this where we want to be?
    2. If not, where DO we want to be?
    3. How do we get from where we are now to where we want to be.

    The study of history may provide some illuminating insights; telling us how different people in different ages with different ideas and norms sought to identify and address those same three questions. And this is intrinsically interesting, and therefore worth doing. But it will not provide us with the answers to those three questions as they arise in the context of the modern world with its modern issues and norms. We must find those answers for ourselves.
  6. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    The vector for the development of these diseases in humansJua is not Eurasia nor is it Eurasians. It is domestication of animals and agriculture. Living in close quarters. Why do we live in close quarters, proprietary boundaries. Why did europeans have relative immunity as a population to these diseases in comparison to american indians, because the diseases arose over time from within our co-habitations.

    As good as it is for comparisons sake the question of america before the europeans, will not give us as much information about that time as the question what is the world now. Physical processes are the same everywhere all the time. It is not particularly our travel or emigration that leads to epidemic or pandemic but our close quartered life styles.
    Just to lend what ever perspective.

  7. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Sorry for the confusion. The land was inhabited around Plymouth Bay as shown by the map below made by Samuel de Champlain which depicts Indian villages and corn fields before the plague of 1617. The map dates to 1606.
    The site chosen was actually the Indian village of Patuxet. This was the village of Tisquantum (Sqaunto) who had been kidnapped by John Hunt in 1614 to sale into slavery in Spain. He escaped to England where he remained until sailing to Newfoundland, then back to England. In 1619 he returned to New England with John Smith to find his village destroyed by smallpox or eptospirosis. Some believe he picked up the practice of burying a fish with a plant to fertilizer it while in Europe.
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    But by studying the past we learn how we got to where we are, and why we are as we are. It will not provide us with the answers but it certainly gives us more knowledge from which to build upon.
  9. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Absolutely. Some claim that by crossing the cold Bering Strait the germs that inhabited Europe and Asia were killed as they could not survive the migration. Also the Americas had no sheep, goats, cows, pigs, chickens, etc. so there were no germs for anthrax, TB, cholera, streptococcus, ringworm, and all of the various poxes, which all derive from these animals.

    See my response above.
  10. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

    We can question this claim on the face of it. If pathogen host survives then pathogen survives. Sparse and dispersed population holds contagion in check. Did human migration over being strait occur after agriculture, animal domestication or civilization arose? If it occurred before those events then there was no life style contributing to the development of those diseases.
  11. BeachBall

    BeachBall Nosey old moo

    I do not disagree with that statement in any way.
  12. Piney

    Piney Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

    When Jacques Carterier explored the St Laurence estuary for France, in the 1500's he found large towns of Amerinds at places that would become Quebec & Montreal; Statadocanda and Honchegalia.

    When Samuel Champlain showed up about 1608 these towns had been abandoned. Why.

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