Alright Skip, let's hear it.

Skip
In your infinite wisdom, I want to hear your thoughts about these two questions.

-Without mentioning Bush, what should the world community have done to oust Saddam Hussein?



-Without mentioning Bush, will you admit that the democrats in congress voted to give Bush war powers?


-Well Skip, it is as simple as that. Our own thread.

 

Saddam was a democratically elected leader!(100%, up from like 96%)..why would anyone want to oust a democratically elected leader? *snicker*

 

That's funny. You're right though, I believe Saddam did have 100% of the votes. The Iraqi people must have loved him. I would have thought different from what I saw over there though.

 

where'd you see it on? American TV..i have a couple of iraqi friends...and they say their country were fine before we came? they had security..food..healthcare...jobs...education...and mostly civil peace? now ....you have none of that...and the death rates have thumped up...fuck bush

 

Chongo, you should really do some reading. Most Iraqis did not love Saddam, they feared him, deeply. The reason Saddam got 100% of the votes is because the election process was rigged. The country was under totalitarian rule.

 

You're right, Pressed Rat....do you really thing that Saddam ever came by anything honestly???

 

Holy fuck dude, I was being totally sarcastic.


Hey skyzar, where did I see it? Where did I see it?? Boots on the ground mother fucker.

 

Oh....geez...I can usually catch on to sarcasm pretty easily...am I losing my touch??? I feel bad.

 

Well, for starters, the world community should have punished the US for GIVING him the weapons and chemicals that he was using to commit his crimes. Seems rather double standard to hook the guy up with weapons that Bu$h #1 KNEW he was using to squash any resistance....funny how you can encourage a revolt against an eeevil dictator but then turn around and give him 'copters and missles and shit....and then we try to say that he's a threat? Seems the only threat to our safety is the dipshit decisions our political leaders make in their own self-interests.

yes!
You know what they say about Democrats and Republicans....Same shit, different pile.

 

The World Community was doing just fine containing Saddam. He was neither a threat to us nor to any surrounding state (which is required as legitimacy for launching an attack on another sovereign nation according to international law and especially for those nations who, like we, have signed and ratified the UN charter.

'Twas Bush and his warmongering admin which disregarded international law and long prior to the "actual" announcement of hostilities by way of the ongoing bombing of Iraqi defenses (justified by the flimsy excuse that our planes were being fired upon, which is any nation's sovereign right of self defence) which was fully tantamount to a declaration of war without such a declaration.

The UN inspections were perfectly on target but had long been manipulated by CIA infiltrators and other Washington machinations (not to mention lies about Saddam expelling inspectors when in fact they were recalled by Washington in advance of our bombing of Baghdad under Clinton).

Insofar as Hans Blix and his team have been vindicated by the failure of US inspectors to find any stockpiles of WMDs capable of qualifying as a "clear and present danger" (especially given the insistence of the Bush admin that our inspectors "needed more time" when the same admin refused to give just that to those already well established on the ground), it is not incumbent upon the "world community" to answer for itself, but rather it is for this US administration and their blind, easily propagandized falg waving followers to do so.

All we have brought to Iraq is a littany of self fulfilling prophecies about extremists who only gained a foothold there in the wake of our destabilising militancy.

 

If you punish the US..then you need to punish pretty much the whole western world..especially Germany, since thats whre most of his weapons came from. Yeah, lets punish the whole western world.

 

I don't recall GERMANY being the country selling weapons and then declaring Iraq to be a "threat" to them. I don't recall Germany being the ones to start bombing Iraq. I don't recall germany having a vice-president on halliburton's payroll....Imagine that, an oil company who has an employee of sorts serving as vice pres of the U$, one of the highest oil consuming countries in the world, and now they have basically taken control over iraq's oil fields. And no WMD to be found in sight, no al Qaeda connections, no OBL, zero, zip, nada, nothing. Yep, it certainly appears that eeeevil ole' germany is the blame here.

 

http://www.desert-storm.com/War/nations.htmlmight want to check again..they were with us in gulf war 1...

and even if they werent...what does it matter? You're only "EVIL" if you sell weapons an then turn around and say they are a threat? The actual selling of weapons to a person who used them against innocent people doesnt make you "EVIL?" Interesitng definition

 

Easy

(1) Any means that was NOT illegal and liable to cause more harm than good. One that had the best interests of the Iraqi people at heart

(2) Yes but would they have if they had been told the truth?

**

I think that any government that supports tyrants or are involved in illegal activities should be punished.

A good start would be to have the International Criminal Court.

 

First, I agree with Megara that the governments of much of the western world should be forced to pay massive reparations to the nations that have been decimated by their constant support of some of the worst dictators and despots to ever exist - ESPECIALLY in Africa and the middle east, but also in Asia and South America. The "western" ("civilized") world has been a blight on this planet since they sent their first ship out, and they should pay. America, Germany, France, Britain - they should all be punished for wrecking this planet. But instead, what they've been rewarded with is massive wealth and continuous rule over the people they've wronged.

As for what SHOULD have been done about Saddam Hussein, I've said before - this is EASY. What should be done with ALL the nasty brutal rulers in the middle east is for the west to refuse to buy oil from those who will not reform, and for those who do to receive massive monetary compensation. Use their greed against them. This, of course, would mean much higher gas prices for americans and europeans until it worked out, but if there was any morality or ethics in foreign policy, this is what would happen. So don't hold your breath, because the only ethic in the western value system is greed and power mongering.

As for whether congress gave Bush "permission" to invade Iraq - sure. Under extreme duress. But it's irrelevant, since the US is a member of the UNITED NATIONS and must abide by the Geneva Convention and UN regulations on war, which made this invasion completely, blatantly, flagrantly ILLEGAL, and made Bush a WAR CRIMINAL.

 

[size=+1][/size][size=+4]Full List Of US Weapons
Suppliers To Iraq[/size][size=+1]
By Anu de Monterice
coachanu@earthlink.net
12-19-2[/size] [size=+1]
[/size] [size=+1]Here is my translation of the original article of 12-18-02 published in the Taz (die tageszeitung), followed by a link and translation of the supplier list of 12-19-02.[/size] [size=+1]USA CENSORS IRAQ REPORT[/size] [size=+1]Germany and the other non-permanent members of the UN Security Council received only a truncated version of the weapons dossier. Data concerning foreign suppliers of Iraq are missing.[/size] [size=+1]Geneva: The 10 non-permanent members of the UN Security Council--to which Germany will belong starting in January--have been withheld substantial parts of the Iraqi arms report. All information about the supplies from--and the support of--foreign companies, research labs and governments from the mid-1970's on, related to Iraqi arms programs, have been deleted. The 5 permanent Council members, the USA, Russia, China, France and Great Britain, are aware of this censorship. According to the German Press Agency DPA, it has reduced the 12,00 page report to only 3000 pages.[/size] [size=+1]From information gathered from UN diplomats of 2 of these 5 countries taz learned that the censorship was agreed on primarily upon the urging of the United States. Among the 5 constant members of the Security Council it was the USA that stood out by giving the strongest support to Saddam Hussain's regime by arming it with the means of mass destruction.[/size] [size=+1]The report gives us a complete overview of these supplies for the first time. In particular it names the 24 US companies and when and to whom in Iraq the supplies were delivered. And it makes clear how strongly the Reagan and the first Bush administrations supported the arming of Iraq, from 1980 up to the Gulf conflict of 1990/91. Substantial construction units for the Iraqi nuclear weapon and rocket programs were supplied with permission of the government in Washington. The poison Anthrax for the arming of Iraq with biological weapons stemmed from US laboratories. Iraqi military and armament experts were trained in the US and there received know-how having to do with their domestic arms programs.[/size] [size=+1]According to the estimation of Susan Wright, a US arms-control expert from the University of Michigan, publication of this information would be "especially embarassing for the USA." It would "remind people in the USA of a very dark chapter, which the Bush administration would prefer to forget about." Whether the US had already struck out this information before it made copies for the other 4 permanent Council members continues to be unclear.[/size] [size=+1]Author: Andreas Zumach[/size] [size=+1]Original in German at http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/18/a0049.nf/text[/size] [size=+1]Translator: Anu de Monterice[/size] [size=+1]The full list of arms suppliers to Iraq, as published by the taz on 12/19/02, can be found at http://www.taz.de/pt/2002/12/19/a0080.nf/textdruck[/size] [size=+1]Legend used in this list:[/size] [size=+1]A = nuclear program,[/size] [size=+1]B = bioweapons program,[/size] [size=+1]C = chemical weapons program,[/size] [size=+1]R = rocket program,[/size] [size=+1]K = conventional weapons, military logistics, supplies at the Iraqi Defense Ministry and the building of military plants.[/size] [size=+1]After the list of US firms are these remarks: "In addition to these 24 companies home-based in the USA are 50 subsidiaries of foreign enterprises which conducted their arms business with Iraq from within the US. Also designated as suppliers for Iraq's arms programs (A, B, C & R) are the US Ministries of Defense, Energy, Trade and Agriculture as well as the Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos and Sandia National Laboratories." (Anu's translation)[/size] [size=+1] US CORPORATIONS[/size] [size=+1]1 Honeywell (R, K)[/size] [size=+1]2 Spectra Physics (K)[/size] [size=+1]3 Semetex (R)[/size] [size=+1]4 TI Coating (A, K)[/size] [size=+1]5 Unisys (A, K)[/size] [size=+1]6 Sperry Corp. (R, K)[/size] [size=+1]7 Tektronix (R, A)[/size] [size=+1]8 Rockwell (K)[/size] [size=+1]9 Leybold Vacuum Systems (A)[/size] [size=+1]10 Finnigan-MAT-US (A)[/size] [size=+1]11 Hewlett-Packard (A, R, K)[/size] [size=+1]12 Dupont (A)[/size] [size=+1]13 Eastman Kodak (R)[/size] [size=+1]14 American Type Culture Collection (B)[/size] [size=+1]15 Alcolac International (C)[/size] [size=+1]16 Consarc (A)[/size] [size=+1]17 Carl Zeiss - U.S (K)[/size] [size=+1]18 Cerberus (LTD) (A)[/size] [size=+1]19 Electronic Associates (R)[/size] [size=+1]20 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)[/size] [size=+1]21 Bechtel (K)[/size] [size=+1]22 EZ Logic Data Systems, Inc. (R)[/size] [size=+1]23 Canberra Industries Inc. (A)[/size] [size=+1]24 Axel Electronics Inc. (A)[/size] [size=+1]Zusätzlich zu diesen 24 Firmen mit Stammsitz USA werden in dem irakischen Rüstungsbericht knapp 50 Tochterfirmen ausländischer Unternehmen aufgeführt, die ihre Rüstungskooperation mit dem Irak von den USA aus betrieben. Außerdem werden die Washingtoner Ministerien für Verteidigung, Energie, Handel und Landwirtschaft sowie die Atomwaffenlaboratorien Lawrence Livermore, Los Alamos und Sandia als Zulieferer für Iraks Rüstungsprogramme für A-, B- und C-Waffen sowie für Raketen benannt.[/size] [size=+1]CHINA[/size] [size=+1]1 China Wanbao Engineering Company (A, C, K)[/size] [size=+1]2 Huawei Technologies Co. Ltd (K)[/size] [size=+1]3 China State Missile Company (R)[/size] [size=+1]FRANCE[/size] [size=+1]1 Commissariat a lEnergie Atomique (A)[/size] [size=+1]2 Sciaky (A)[/size] [size=+1]3 Thomson CSF (A, K)[/size] [size=+1]4 Aerospatiale and Matra Espace (R)[/size] [size=+1]5 Cerbag (A)[/size] [size=+1]6 Protec SA (C)[/size] [size=+1]7 Thales Group (A)[/size] [size=+1]8 Societé Général pour les Techniques Nouvelles (A)[/size] [size=+1]GREAT BRITAIN[/size] [size=+1]1 Euromac Ltd-Uk (A)[/size] [size=+1]2 C. Plath-Nuclear (A)[/size] [size=+1]3 Endshire Export Marketing (A)[/size] [size=+1]4 International Computer Systems (A, R, K)[/size] [size=+1]5 MEED International (A, C)[/size] [size=+1]6 Walter Somers Ltd. (R)[/size] [size=+1]7 International Computer Limited (A, K)[/size] [size=+1]8 Matrix Churchill Corp. (A)[/size] [size=+1]9 Ali Ashour Daghir (A)[/size] [size=+1]10 International Military Services (R) (im Besitz des brit. Verteidigungsministeriums)[/size] [size=+1]11 Sheffield Forgemasters (R)[/size] [size=+1]12 Technology Development Group (R)[/size] [size=+1]13 International Signal and Control (R)[/size] [size=+1]14 Terex Corporation (R)[/size] [size=+1]15 Inwako (A)[/size] [size=+1]16 TMG Engineering (K)[/size] [size=+1]17 XYY Options, Inc (A)[/size] [size=+1]USSR-RUSSIA[/size] [size=+1]1 Soviet State Missile Co. (R)[/size] [size=+1]2 Niikhism (R)[/size] [size=+1]3 Mars Rotor (R)[/size] [size=+1]4 Livinvest (R)[/size] [size=+1]5 Russia Aviatin Trading House (K)[/size] [size=+1]6 Amsar Trading (K)[/size] [size=+1]Weitere Länder[/size] [size=+1]JAPAN[/size] [size=+1]1 Fanuc (A)[/size] [size=+1]2 Hammamatsu Photonics KK (A)[/size] [size=+1]3 NEC (A)[/size] [size=+1]4 Osaka (A)[/size] [size=+1]5 Waida (A)[/size] [size=+1]NETHERLANDS[/size] [size=+1]1 Melchemie B.V. (C)[/size] [size=+1]2 KBS Holland B.V. (C)[/size] [size=+1]3 Delft Instruments N.V. (K)[/size] [size=+1]BELGIUM[/size] [size=+1]1 Boehler Edelstahl (A),[/size] [size=+1]2 NU Kraft Mercantile Corporation (C),[/size] [size=+1]3 OIP Instrubel (K),[/size] [size=+1]4 Phillips Petroleum (C)[/size] [size=+1]5 Poudries Réunies Belge SA (R)[/size] [size=+1]6 Sebatra (A),[/size] [size=+1]7 Space Research Corp. (R)[/size] [size=+1]SPAIN[/size] [size=+1]1 Spanien: Donabat (R)[/size] [size=+1]2 Treblam (C)[/size] [size=+1]3 Zayer (A)[/size] [size=+1]SWEDEN[/size] [size=+1]1 ABB (A)[/size] [size=+1]2 Saab-Scania (R)

[/size] [size=+1]Source here[/size]
Remains only the question: Where are all this WMD now?

 

yes!
You know what they say about Democrats and Republicans....Same shit, different pile.

 

I agree with post above quote. US gave weapons to Iraq when they were at war with Iran. And the european goverments gave him his chemical weapons and the know how on how to make them. No one was upset when he used these weapons on the Iranians. Just another axis of evil i guess.

 

Nope, nobody cared, untill it came back to bite them in the butt! Same with the Taliban. The United States gave them all their resources too.