All christians see Jesus as God

Is it something all christians believe or part of the christians believe?

I wonder about it.

 

all*

 

Can someone explain to me what "the father, son & holy ghost means? According to christians their god is also jesus and something known a the holy ghost.

 

It's complicated (or a "mystery", as theologians like to put it). Most Christians believe in one God in three different persons. In human psychology we have similar concepts: Freud's ego, id and superego; the phenomenon of multiple personalities, etc. Other religions also have doctrines that are somewhat similar. Hinduism has the concept of the Trimurti--one deity, the Brahman, with three different aspects (Brahma, the creator; Vishnu, the sustainer; Shiva, the destroyer. In the Puranas, the gods Brama, Vishnu and Shiva appear to the believer and say: The three gods, Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva manifest themselves to the worshiper and say: "Learn, O devotee, that there is no real distinction between us. What to you appears such is only the semblance. The single being appears under three forms by the acts of creation, preservation, and destruction, but he is one." (To make it more confusing, each of the three manifestations has manifestations, or avatars (incarnations): e.g., Krishna, the eighth avatar of the god Vishnu, who came to earth in human form; Kali, goddess of death and destroyer of evil, a manifestation of the goddess Durga, Vishnu's consort.

The ancient Egyptians were particularly big on trinity: "All gods are three: Amun, Re and Ptah, and there is no second to them. Hidden is his name as Amon, he is Re in face, and his body is Ptah." . . This is a statement of trinity, the three chief gods of Egypt subsumed into one of them, Amon." (Najovits,2004). Christianity grew out of the zealously monotheistic religion Judaism, but in Judaism there were already trends in the Hellenistic period toward metaphorically personifying aspects of God as metaphors, e. g., Chokmah (Wisdom), portrayed as a female figure (Sir. 1:15; Wis. 7:12; Prov. 1:20–33; 8:1–9:6 ),"For she is the breath of the power of God, and a pure influence flowing from the glory of the Almighty: therefore can no defiled thing fall into her. For she is the brightness of the everlasting light, the unspotted mirror of the power of God, and the image of his goodness. And being but one, she can do all things: and remaining in herself, she maketh all things new: and in all ages entering into holy souls, she maketh them friends of God, and prophets." (Wisdom 7: 25-27). This figure became associated with Sophia, an important deity in Hellenistic religion. There was also in the apocryphal literature (not the Bible) a tradition of a second power in Heaven associated with the figure Metatron, conceptualized as Enoch or an archangel. He became associated with the Shekinah (earthly presence) of God, sometimes seen as his feminine consort. Also, the pagan concept of the Logos (Divine Reason) became important, in late Hellenistic neoplatonic phiolosophy, carried into Judaism by Jewish philosophers like Philo of Alexandria.

The stage was set for the Christian development of the doctrine of the Trinity. First, we have references to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Jesus' "great commission"(Mat. 28:19). In the book of Acts, the Holy Spirit was said to descend on the Apostles on Pentecost, animating them with a new sense of dedication and giving them special powers. So the Father is regarded as creatro, the Son is the Logos or Word, and the Holy Spirit is the energy or God's power of Love in action, personified--similar to the Shekinah of Judaism. The Holy Spirit is the divine Person who possesses Pentecostals and other charismatics and makes them roll around on the floor and speak in tongues.

Subsequently, generations of Christians tried to figure out what that all meant, and in particular, who and what was Jesus on whom their faith was grounded. Was He just a great prophet or someone divine. The pagan Greeks and Romans had traditions of gods having sons, and of humans becoming divine. The Gospel of John, considered to be the last of the gospels, at the end of the second century, depicts Jesus as the Logos who existed with God from the beginning of time. In the third century, Tertulian advanced an early formulation of a doctrine supporting this idea, but one which subordinated the Son to the Father. That became a point of controversy in the Church, with Arius, an Alexandrian priest arguing that Jesus was begotten by the Father and therefore subordinate to him, while Athanasius advance the opposing doctrine that the persons of the Trinity were of the same "substance", though separate as persons, the position known as homoousianism, which became the official doctrine of the church after the Council of Nicaea. Most Christian denominations follow this. The one that doesn't are the Jehovah's Witnesses, who follow the Arian view. In fact, they identify Jesus with the Archangel Michael. Are they Christian? That point is debatable, but most Christians consider them heretical. The original sticking point was the nature of Jesus and His relationship to the Father, but subsequent councils added the Holy Spirit.

Such issues used to be a really big deal. The main doctrinal issue that led to the split between the orthodox and Roman catholic churches is the filoque--whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone or from the Father and the Son. I could never understand how: (1) anyone could feel competent to answer questions like that; or (2) what difference it would make.

Does that answer your question?

 

I never questioned the "holy ghost" but sure said those words in my life...no more when I finally got my TRUTHS in my mid 60's,,,, yes it took me a lot of years of struggle.

 

Thank you.

 

Speaking in tongues can be elegantly dignified . In its Angelic form it would be a good Universal language
for the One world . The One world unified in the Christ is with true and honest words . And these words
are made fresh with spirit as Art .

 

It can also be unintelligible gibberish. The Apostles at Pentecost were said actually to speak in authentic foreign languages that the speaker had not learned and that whose native speakers could understand (Acts 2: "every man heard them speak in his own language" and wondered "how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?"). This phenomenon is called xenoglossy . Today's charismatics speak gobbledeygook-- something they may think is a real language and may sound like a real language but is not an actual language spoken by anyone but themselves. Samarin, William J. (1972). Tongues of Men and Angels: The Religious Language of Pentecostalism . This phenomenon is called glossolalia and it can be found in non-Christian religions, as well, documented in Indonesia and Africa. F.D.Goodman (1972). Speaking in Tongues: A Cross-Cultural Study in Glossolalia. Neroimaging of brain activity during glossolalia shows no activity in the language areas of he brain, but does show a reduction in circulatory cortisol and increases in enzmyes indicative of stress reduction during an ecstatic state. Some people can pick it up by listening to others, and most can do it after some training. Spanos et al, (February 1986). Journal of Abnormal Psychology

 

Ok . The Salish of Montana (Flathead) tell me it is old , old language . Every phoneme is
a morpheme . They have songs so ancient the words as meaning are unknown to them .

I have neuroimaged your brain . Oh , well .

Jesus may be a god in the old language , but it's not such a glorious deal .
The essential idea is Respect .

 

Not all, but most. And of course there are the semantic questions: what is a Christian? What is God? Some (not I) would say anyone who doesn't believe Jesus is God can't be a Christian. I don't accept that, because the earliest Christians (Nazerenes, Ebionites) didn't. They thought that Jesus was the Son of God by adoption (the virgin birth thing came a bit later). (James, brother of Jesus and head of the Jerusalem Church, would probably have had trouble accepting Jesus as God be cause he saw how he kept his room!) The notion that Jesus was divine seems to have come from the Greco-Roman world and the Jewish communities outside of Palestine. Paul's atonement/sacrifice concept assumes some divinity on the part of Jesus. Some thought of Him as a kind of demigod whose status elevated after resurrection. The issue was still in hot dispute until the Fourth Century--Arius claiming that Jesus was God's first creation and subordinate to the Father. The Council of Nicaea in 325 c.e. came up with the formula that settled it for most Christians.:Jesus was fully God and fully human--of the same substance as the Father and the Holy Spirit. That view became established as orthodoxy and part of the Nicene creed recited by Christians in churches around the world. But there were holdouts. Today, the Jehovah's Witnesses (are they Christian?) continue to accept the Arian version, and think Jesus was the Archangel Michael. They say they are Christians because: They try to follow closely the teachings and behavior of Jesus Christ.; they.believe that Jesus is the key to salvation; and they are baptized in the name of Jesus. "Progressive" Christians tend to think of Jesus' divinity as a metaphor, but are no less committed to Him as central to their spiritual lives.

I think of myself as a Christian, although I wouldn't meet the litmus test of traditional congregations (and vice versa). I was drawn to Christianity by what I consider to be the core teachings of Jesus: unconditional love of God and neighbor, including society's rejects and the least advantaged members of society. God, inter alia. Ultimate Meaning. That principle is itself ultimate meaning--an aspect of God that, in my opinion, was best conveyed by Jesus.

 

The Jehovah's Witnesses sees Christ as a prophet of God and worships Jehovah alone. They similarly are seen as a Christian sect and not a separate religion.

This point of view is also shared by other monotheistic religions and sects like Islam, Bahaism , Prajapita Brahmakumaris.

 

It's a first commandment thing. Jesus has to be God, otherwise it is a sin to worship him. I think it was Okiefreak here who said faith is a "hopeful bet". Lets hope Christians land on that number at the Pearly Gates Casino and 24 hour buffet.

 

That was "joyful bet"(Martin Luther), but close enough. The bet on heaven is Pascal's, whose version I find kinda crass. If we purport to believe in God mainly for the possibility of extrinsic benefits, I think we run into serious idolatry issues. I prefer to bet on present reality and ultimate meaning, which is more William James..

If Jesus were not God, it would be a sin to worship Him, but He could still be venerated as a great prophet (as Muslims do with both Muhammad and Isa (Jesus) or Catholics do their saints. Muslims believe Isa could perform miracles that the Prophet Muhammad could not perform, and will come again (but not as a prophet) before the Great Day (Al-‘Iraaqi Tarh at-tathreeb: 8/117) , but was still fully human and just a prophet. Fine line, I admit.

 

I would distinguish between Jesus and God, to a degree. Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself.

In John 14:6 Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you have known Him and have seen Him.

Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me,"

Jesus said that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him because they are of one accord, one Spirit.

When Jesus was baptized He received the Holy Spirit of God.

Matthew 3:16 "When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him."

So Jesus received the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was able to dwell within Him perfectly, because He lived a life without sin. Thus, Jesus and God are two separate entities, but they have the same Spirit. Jesus is God's son.

So after Jesus was crucified He sat down at the right hand of God. Inasmuch as He is not God Himself but His son, and sat down at His right hand. Hebrews 10: 12

"But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool."

 

Gee,I thought that Christians in the know decided in the fourth century that Jesus is the Son of God AND God Himself. The Council of Nicaea decided in 325 C.E., that Jesus, the Son of God, was God, co-eternal with the Father and begotten at the same time. Or don't you agree? It does seem a bit mind boggling to think of the Father and Son being "co-eternal" and persons of the same entity, but that's generally been the case with Christian theology. For example, the big issue between the eastern orthodox and western churches is the filioque--whether the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, or just the Father. Being a mortal without superhuman intellect, it strikes me rather presumptuous to say which of the co-eternal persons of the Trinity a third co-equal personality, but that's traditional Christian theology for you! A real head scratcher.

 

SO... I knew that too. THe Holy Trinity concept is fundamental to the faith.

 

Do you trust the judgement of ' The Council of Nicaea ' and consider it infallible ! Those who disagreed with them then were banished for dissent !

 

No I don't think that makes sense. Jesus is quite literally His Son. If they are the same entity, then how is He sitting at His right hand?

Jesus is an intermediary between God and man. He is our High Priest. Hebrews 4:14

"Seeing then that we have a great High Priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. For we do not have a High priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin."

Hebrews 5:4

"And no man takes this honor to himself but he who is called by God, just as Aaron was."

Jesus is our "Advocate" 1 john2:1

So Jesus has inherited all authority on heaven and earth from God. He is the High Priest of mankind, the king of kings, the head of the church, the firstborn Son of God among many brothers and sisters, and the ruler that will sit on the throne of David in the eternal age.

But during His time on earth Jesus was so in tune with the Holy Spirit that he was in essence perfectly enacting the will of God. So Jesus and God are in perfect unity and agreement, but not the same person.

 

Got that right!

Gives new meaning to the phrase being "beside oneself"!

Would this mean God has hands? Or that an incorporial being outside of time and space can be located geograhically so that it would be meaningful to speak in terms of "Left and Right". Seems to me this passage is intended as an allegory--using the imagery of monarchy to convey God's majesty and the importance of Jesus.

I personally think these questions are a waste of time--and worse than that, lead to the kinds of controversies that could end up with Christians burning each other at the stake, as they have in the past. If God is ineffable, as the theologians tell us, we're probably not going to figure Him out. I recently had a protracted and inconclusive argument on another thread over whether or not Jesus even existed. I think He did, but I try to follow the teachings and example presented to us in the Gospels--which is something else again. Good enough for me. I place my bets and take my chances.

 

Yes I do think that God has hands. In genesis 1:26 He says "Let Us make man in our image, according to Our likeness." When God created man He made us look like Him.

Then in revelation 4:2-5

"Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne set in heaven, and One sat on the throne. And He who sat there was like a jasper and a sardius stone in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, in appearance like an emerald. Around the throne were twenty-four thrones, and on the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white robes; and they had crowns of gold on their heads. And from the throne proceeded lightnings, thunderings, and voices. Seven lamps of fire were burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."

And when God went to meet Moses on the mountain exodus 20: 18

"Now all the people witnessed the thunderings, the lightning flashes, and the sound of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood far off. Then they said to Moses, "You speak with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die."

numbers 12: 6-8

"Hear now My words; if there a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision; I speak to him in a dream. Not so with my servant Moses; He is faithful in all my house. I speak with him face to face, even plainly, and not in dark sayings; and he sees the form of the Lord."