Abortion

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Mui, May 28, 2004.

  1. Mui

    Mui Senior Member

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    How is it a shitty argument? I think you just dont like the argument... Why the fuck should we make something illegal if its going to do nothing but imprison more people? Thats fucking stupid. The people who get abortions arent criminals... the right wing acts like they care so much about life, but once a child is born and they are out in the world, they have nothing for them...
     
  2. Megara

    Megara Banned

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    you can say that for any freaking law we have.

    It is a bad argument because you cant argue that something should be legal because people will do it anyways. Should we make all drugs legal(bad site to ask this, i know) since people will do them anyways? Should we make all crimes legal because people will do them anyways? Make an argument on what benefit it will have to society and not that women will commit crimes even if it is banned.

    There are real arguments to abortion such as does society need another kid to pay for since the mother will abandon it? I dont think so. Do we really want to subject a kid to living in poverty when the mother can not only NOT afford the kid but doesnt even want it? There are many others too.
     
  3. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    I realize what point he was trying to make. I simply pointed out the difference between murder and abortion. Replying with "so murder should be legal because it's going to happen anyway" is also STUPID. Neither are decent arguments.
     
  4. WayfaringStranger

    WayfaringStranger Corporate Slave #34

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    i think we should only be able to kill man children, because if the baby is female, then its her body and her choice.
    edit: im sorry i shouldnt have said baby, i meant unspecified cells.
     
  5. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    What a load of shit, to generalize all anti abortionists as Christian Conservatives. I am Catholic, my church happens to be against abortion and gay marrige, but I support gay marrige.

    I am against abortion becasue I have repeatedly (on the old site) explained how life beings at conception. I have yet anyone to tell me by what magical alchemy a fetus automatically becomes a human. And no, a fetus does not magically become a human just becasue it is pushed out to the other side of the woman, that is a load of crap. It IS a human, it is just in a stage of devolopment. Hell, we, as we type/read here on this forum, are still devoloping, at least I am, I just turned 18 a few months ago.

    I am in 100% support of contraception and sex education. I am not a republican or a fundementalist, I look at this from a legal standpoint. The doctors responsible for performing abortions should be imprisoned for life, and the mother and father for allowing it. It is a grotesque and sick practice, in all trimesters, and I cannot beleive any decent or straight thinking person can sit there and support it or not want to "Infringe" on people who do.

    I mean, I have debated people on here who have said it should be legal becasue there ARE TOO MANY PEOPLE IN THE WORLD. WTF, so was it okay when Stalin killed 9 million Russians or Hitler killed 6 million Jews? I mean for Christ's sake, that is NOT having control over your body. Having control over your body means not having sex without protection or not having it period. People need to take some responsibility for their fucking actions.

    Now of course there ARE EXCEPTIONS, such as rape or the danger of the mother's life is at stake, but less than 2% of abortions are performed for that reason. We have the morning after pill to cure most of those cases.
     
  6. Megara

    Megara Banned

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    well said Jozak.
     
  7. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    So you would imprision someone for life for having an abortion? What if that person had children already? You would send their mother (and father, perhaps) away for life, leaving them without parents? It makes me very sad that there are people who would do that.

    A woman who was raped is allowed to have an abortion? Why? If life begins at conception, a fetus conceived by rape has just as much a right to live as a fetus conceived by sex between two consenting parties.
     
  8. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    Thanks for ignoring the other parts of my post.....very intelligent

    Yes.


    It makes me sad that some people like you can support an infanticide like that and call it, "Women's Rights"--you don't have the right to take a life of another person without a just cause.

    I think it is grossly unfair to force a woman who was raped to have the child of her violator. This is a justifiable cause for ending a life, however, as I said, these types of scenarios are rare--Although, research has shown that women who are raped and have had the child of thier rapist actually heal better, as they can find a, "Positive outcome" of the situation. Very few people know the trauma for a woman after having an abortion.
     
  9. Mui

    Mui Senior Member

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    *sings*
    This is why i always dread abortion threads! It's Never Going To End!!!! :-O
    *cowers in fear*
     
  10. sugrmag

    sugrmag Uber Nerd

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    How are you supposed to prove the woman was raped? Many women don't report rape. Many men don't get convicted. Some women falsely accuse men of rape. It's too hard to pin down what is actually true. And, usually women who DO report rape, go to the hospital and are given EC (emergency contraception).
     
  11. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    I didn't ignore parts of your post - I picked out some parts I had the most problem with.

    I think it is absolutely horrible that you would send away a child's parent. This is the sort of thinking that strengthens my opinion that people who are against abortion care nothing for the already born children, only those in the womb. Typical of pro-lifers.

    Also, just to clarify: I don't support infanticide. Infanticide is the killing of an already born infant. Hence, why they call it infanticide. A fetus is not an infant. It is a fetus.

    There is always a justifiable cause for having an abortion: the woman does not want to be pregnant. It's as simple as that.

    Please tell me where I can find this research that shows women are happy to carry their rapist's child. You do have the facts to back this up, correct? I'd like to see your sources for myself. Thank you.
     
  12. moonshyne

    moonshyne Approved by the FDA

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    "A fetus is not an infant. It is a fetus."

    Oh goody, so we can get away with murder on a technicality. If a baby is born while a woman is 7 months pregnant with it, should it be considered a fetus or a baby? Should she be able to rip out it brains 2 weeks from its date of birth, because if she were still pregnant it would be allowed.

    i have been pregnant 4 times, i have 3 children, and I've had one abortion. I am NOT PRO-LIFE. But i'm also not about to tell someone it's YOUR body, do what you want, or that the baby your killing is no more than a mass of "unspecified" cells. Any woman here that's ever had an ultra sound knows better. That mass of cells in your body looks like a miniature human after only a month or so.

    I know what it's like to struggle, and to do without. i've had people look at me with absolute disgust for disgracing their planet with my presence. These are the people that demand that women keep their babies or burn in hell forever....but yet when that baby is born they'd just as soon spit on it as they would help contribute to its health and well-being. Like it's okay to think about a child's welfare as long as it's in someone else's belly, but as soon as it's born it can go straight to the gutter for all they care.

    The fact of the matter is we do not live in a perfect world. Men will run away from responsiblities, naive little girls will have unprotected sex with idiot little boys (or disgusting old men), if this country is not willing to deal with the REASONS why women get abortions, or care for the children that are born when they DON'T get abortions, then we have absolutely NO right to make them illegal.

    Just a side note....this is the dumbest argument ever. No one here will change their mind, someone's always gonna twist someone else's words, everyone will fight, and then this thread will self destruct. Or someone will get banned.
     
  13. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    Just for clarification, I only brought that up because Jozak said that I supported infanticide, which I most certainly do not.
     
  14. darsunt

    darsunt Member

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    I think the trouble with an establishment (such as the conservative establishment) is that it needs to believe its values and ideals are perfect, when they are not. It also has to believe anyone who deviates from these ideals cannot be good or decent, which is also false.

    So I suppose to conservatives, if you are good you'll never need to have an abortion. And if you do, they think you must be a bad person so too bad you can go use a hanger and die, no loss. Of course this makes enemies for the conservatives because there are good and decent people who need or could some day need abortion, (although conservatives can't believe this) and anti-abortion laws are like a slap in their face.
     
  15. Ginge

    Ginge Ye Olde Member

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    While I personally would never get an abortion, I agree with this statement 100%. And I think that's my biggest problem with wanting to make it illegal: So the child lives...who's going to take care of it? It's so easy to say "give the child up for adoption", and ideally, kind, loving, caring, well-to-do families would come along and adopt every child in the system and love them as if they were their own.

    But in this world, the system is flooded with children who spend their entire childhood going from foster home to foster home, with no sense of love, connection, or stability. As of September 2001, there were 542,000 children in foster care, with 263,000 of them actually exiting foster care (that year). Of those 263,000, only 18% of them were adopted by a family. (http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/frames/frameset_d.cfm?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnccanch%2Eacf%2Ehhs%2Egov%2Fpubs%2Ffactsheets%2Ffosterdlinks%2Ecfm%23one)

    To be fair, more than half of the children in foster care that year were reunited with their biological birth parents. However, I believe most of those were children who were taken away from their parents for whatever reason. But if a woman chose to put her child in the system instead of aborting it, I don't know the probability of the woman really wanting to get the child back. Something else I'll have to look into later.

    This is why I, personally, would sooner adopt a child before I have one of my own. I wonder how many pro-life people would seriously consider adoption, and how many people who have adopted children are pro-life. That would be an interesting study...
     
  16. Cosmic Butterfly

    Cosmic Butterfly Member

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    A mass of unspecified cells that do not feel pain? Its okay to kill a fetus in the womb, because it hasnt become an infant?? Im going crazy with all this insanity, and blasphemy!!!!


    AAAAAAAAAH!!! ABORTION THREADS! *explodes*:eek:
     
  17. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    Dcotors can usually tell if a woman was raped or not.
     
  18. Edward G.

    Edward G. Edwardson

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    Pfft... This is why I never take Christians/Catholics seriously. :rolleyes:
     
  19. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    Whatever.

    You are a moron. I am not a typcial pro lifer, most pro lifers are not Libertarians who support sex education and contraception, including the morning after pill. I am not, not caring about the born children already, but it is people like you who, maddam, strengthen my opinion, who think it's okay to suck a child out of its mother's womb with a vaccum or stab it in the head with blades in the third trimester. Terrible. I think it's terrible and inhumane what you advocate. I support prison, and you support this grotesque practice, typical femenazi. Oh wait--I just generalized you didn't I?

     
  20. lovelyweapon

    lovelyweapon Member

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    If you did care about born children you would not advocate taking their mother and father away from them and putting them in jail, when they most likely had their born children's interest at heart - if they decided it was best to have an abortion. And by the way, I don't support third trimester abortions. However, these are the abortions mostly done to save the life of the mother. You don't think that women are carrying perfectly healthy pregnancies to term and then deciding a week before their due date that they have changed their minds and want an abortion, do you?

    Moving on, the reason I made the infant vs. fetus statement is that obviously you cannot comprehend the difference between abortion and infanticide. Infanticide is the killing of an already born child, as I previously stated. If you want to put a -cide on it...well, I suppose it would be feticide. I was merely trying to help you to not look ignorant while debating this issue. Though perhaps it's a futile effort.

    So...let me get this straight. If I get raped, I can have an abortion. Because having sex wasn't my fault, right? But if I willingly have sex, I can't get an abortion because I must suffer the consequences. Using your logic, if I forget to lock my door at night and a man sneaks in and rapes me, it's my fault because I didn't take the proper precautions against locking people out of my house, and shouldn't be able to get medical treatment after it.

    Because, afterall, I have to accept responsibilities for my actions, yes?

    About your links on women who are violated being happy to carry their rapists spawn: I don't hold religious publications in very high regard. They have been known to skew or even totally make up facts to support their argument. I thought you were basing your statements on a non-biased source. Silly me.
     

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