Abortion

I would never have an abortion as I see adoption is a better choice FOR ME. However, I am pro-choice, as that decision should be up to the mother and father, unless the father is not in the picture. Of course, there are always other circumstances such as rape which should be considered as well. I do not like partial birth abortion because the fetus is partially delivered and could be given up for adoption, but this is my opinion. If that form of abortion does not bother the mother, then go ahead.

Peace and love

 

I don't think you can have a civil debate about abortion with anyone using the Jesus smiley as an avatar. Statistics show they will result to insults and violence in short order because logic is totally alien to fundamentalists. As you can see, when confronted with logic and fairness the child verbally attacked two other posters in only his second and fourth posts in this thread. Typical.

 

I don't see how this is an emotional charged issue. If you don't agree with abortion, then don't have one! Let others live their lives.

Peace and love

 

Are you implying that abortion is a non-issue in most western nations? On the contrary, most western nations have restrictions on abortion, nations such as Finland only allow abortion in special circumstances such as rape, fetal defects etc and abortion in not allowed past the 2nd trimester if that ( mostly abortion is restricted to 1st trimester ).

Canada is the country I'm arguing has a horrendous legal state, no restrictions whatsoever and the first 3 are free ( except in Nova Scotia ).

 

So what? I think it's great that a country such as Canada is so open to abortions and allowing women to exercise their right to choose.

Peace and love

 

You're such a f^cking hypocrite, I mean I hate hippies but at least when you say peace and love make it meaningfull instead of just a catch phrase.

 

There you have it, folks. He said it again.

 

The issue is abortion, not my signature, although I do mean "Peace and love" no matter what your posts say.

Peace and love (for real)

 

Hatred is apart of humanity, don't deny it, you hate something or someone just like everyone else.

 

I seemed to survive it okay. There are plenty of practising Christians who are pro-choice, so perhaps massive generalisations regarding religion aren't helpful here?

I'm not implying that, I'm saying that most Western nations have had their abortion debate, decided on some rules, and got on with their lives, without taking too much notice of the few foaming lunatics who want to ban it outright and who will make ridiculous claims in order to support that argument. (I've seen propaganda that said the foetus screams when it's aborted... I mean, for fuck's sake, at least come up with something mildly plausible). I don't know how representative Finland is of the rest of Europe and the non-rubbish Americas, to be honest, but restricting abortion to a few extreme circumstances is a lot fairer than what some people will call for. I do sometimes wonder if a few of them would like to bring an unwanted kid to term for 9 months and then send it off to an orphanage, if it'd be fun for them.

I would be very surprised if there really weren't any restrictions in Canada, like I'm guessing performing abortions while intoxicated is illegal. Stupid example? Kinda, but my point is that most countries have found a middle ground, rather than taking so much notice of the extreme viewpoints who either want kids to have home-abortion classes in school or to bomb abortion clinics.

In this country there is a trimester limit (not sure what it is), but there's no question that it should be made available only to rape victims or in other special circumstances. There are groups that want that, or for it to be banned outright. They are very easy to ignore, and I can't understand why America has such trouble doing the same.

 

Incidentally, if we're talking sigs, I wonder how open to abuse a quote like the one in your signature could be. I understand the meaning of it, and also what has been written about it since then. It's quite arcane really, and doesn't absolve anyone of a responsibility to do "right", even if "right" and "wrong" don't exist as universal absolutes.

 

That's why I use the words negative and benefit and even then I admit I may be on the negative even though I believe myself to be on the benefit in terms of sides of a debate, in the end all we have is fact, what is and what is in the case of abortion is the termination of a fetus which has a high probability in 1st and 2nd world countries to develop into a human being, so by definiton it's the termination of a premature human being, by Canadian law however a fetus even a day before it's due is considered not to be human, partial birth abortion is legal in Canada.

 

I don't think anyone's arguing that a foetus isn't a potential human being. A lot of laws are based more on the foetus' relationship to the mother. I'm pretty sure here, a foetus can be aborted if it could not survive outside the womb independently of the mother. The implication is that, until it can survive outside the womb, it is still a part of the mother's body - effectively her property.

What do you think of that?

 

Interesting how you say that, a wife was once property of her husband, most blacks in North America were once property of their owners, in fact do you know that at one time in the U.S., not sure but some time before the Civil War, blacks were defined as 3/5th a person.

I just hope with evolution we will eventually find ourselves living in a world where those women who do not intend to have children are given 100% contraceptive, same goes for the men, that's not surgery, that there will be a 100% effective pill or shot, and that to solve the overpopulation we will expand our territory into space, there will not be a depleading youth population because there will be factories, producing children, either comissioned by a couple or comissioned by the government, and at the same time the useless living beings will be terminated, a world where abortion will fail to be an issue because there will be no desire or need to have one.

 

Correct me if I am misunderstanding you, MaximusXXX, but you are against a woman's right to choose, in yet you desire to live in a world where factories produce children and "useless" people are terminated? Your logic bewilders me .

 

Yeah I know, it confuses the hell out of my friends too, but I drink a lot too so it doesn't bother too many people. :jester:

 

I don't really see your point. Are you saying I'm discriminating against foetuses? And the mother is like the redneck and the foetus is the illegal immigrant? So the mother's just some intolerant hick who can't stand the idea of some filthy negro living inside her body?

Wow, you have opened my eyes.

I think a big part of the problem with this is that people on both sides try to explain this by analogy, but we can't keep on doing that. A foetus is not an oppressed mass any more than it is a parasite, and thinking of them as such is just a way of ignoring the complexity of the issue. Laws that govern independent organisms shouldn't extend to the unborn, but neither should we treat them the same way we would a tumour.

So aborting a kid is okay as long as it's not the result of irresponsible sex? That seems a lot like what you're saying. It doesn't make sense to solve the over-population problem by giving people decent contraception, and then start mass-producing children in government factories. What does that accomplish? I'm kinda hoping you're making an analogy here, because the logical disparity is very clear if it was meant to be a real idea.

It's worth noting that, while you are against abortion but in favour of contraception, a lot of people are against both. In your country, abstenance based education is popular, and many chemists are taking what they believe to be their ethical right to refuse to sell birth control pills to women.

Abortion is a lot older than contraception, I'm afraid. It takes a lot to overcome that. We've reached a point through science where a mother can abort a long time before the child is born, before they're even aware that they're alive. In nature, it's not uncommon for parents to eat their yooung in times of hardship, rather than have both mother and offspring struggle to live in harsh times and most probably all die. While few here starve, there is a nobility in wanting the child you do eventually have to have a decent start in life, rather than having another when you're not ready and either having it grow up with parents who resent it/are absent, or leaving it at an orphanage.

 

Yeah, but the government would control the factories. They'd be rational, sensible men, not these silly women.

 

And that's exactly his point. In a fascist society, the government gets to decide who is suitable to society and weeds out the undesireables. Individuals don't get to make that choice, they just do what they are told or they become the undesireable element.

Eventually, societal harmony is acheived. This is Max's utopia.

 

Murder is not an acceptable "choise".