ABORTION....?! yay or nay?!!

So we come to a reasonable conclusion.- That is, we have to place abortion in an appropriate context and think about it that way. Is abortion natural? No. Is it a medical procedure? Yes, so it should be used to save lives rather than undo what was already done just because you/or the person in mind doesn't like it.

 

Abortion in the appropriate context exists as a necessity when certain people see fit.

Medical procedures aren't always performed to save lives either.

 

So Trickster, your WHOLE argument rests on that one argument????

"it's a woman's decision" that's it? Well...first of all....robbing a bank is a person's decision too. But it's NOT a right to do that....!

It was NOT a woman's right to kill a fetus until Roe vs Wade.

The Supreme Court has reversed itself before, and may reverse Roe vs Wade someday.

It was based on the Dread Scott decision that a slave could not sue his master because he was not a LEGAL person (not a question of being a human being, but a legal person, like a company is a legal person) so the Court never was interested in the question of the fetus being a human person....it didn't have the legal right to be born !! So that could get reversed someday.....The COurt really just wanted ZERO population growth, so the USA would not have to transfer power and wealth to burgening populations of blacks.

So, Tricky, its only a RIGHT until the Supreme Court changes its mind. Or,.......

a Presidential Proclamation like that of Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation could theoretically get around Roe vs Wade by Bush simply declaring that the legal life of the person exists from conception !

and then all the selfish fems that are too scared or shamed to be inconvenienced by a child will have to go somewhere else to kill that lovely child growing inside of her.

 

so Trickster I suspect you are merely trying to justify an abortion that you may have had. You sound strident. Like you are defending yourself! It is difficult to come to accept some things we have done. Maybe I was responsible for certain people having taken too many drugs and OD'd....so maybe that's why I am so anti-drug now....having seen all the lives it destroyed, or ended. Someday, if you accept the reality of what abortion is, you may be a very much changed person. There certainly are many women who have gone through it.....including Jane Roe herself who is anti-abortion activist now.....think about it.

 

IMO it is a human rights matter, not a womens rights matter. Pro-life and Pro-choice are both self rightous movements based on "we're infinitly right and their infinitly wrong". Just look at the names, they make the people who oppose them out to be anti-life or anti-choice. What am I for? the restriction of abortions to cases that need it. People shouldnt have elective amputations or transplants, even though it is their bodies that they would be altering. of course abortion is different than that.....its convenient. thats the whole problem. a few hundred bucks and you can dodge out of the responsibility of parenthood that was unwittingly initiated with unprotected sex (again, I am reffering to elective abortion cases, not ones of rape or incest or other such extreme circumstances). hey, in some countries, you can abort a baby a few weeks after birth. What I dont like about the Pro-life camp however is that I find that their arguements allways stray into the religious. Its as absurd as a Japanese man and a Swedish man carrying an arguement in their own languages and not understanding one another. Just once I would like to see a completely neutral abortion debate, not bringing religion or other such things into it. Pro-life scares alot of people away in this way. Me myself, I am not religious, but I am highly spiritual, I respect the teachings of Krishna, Jesus, Buddha, Zarathustra, the Baha'ullah, Muhammed, and countless others, and I think they come from the same source, but dogmatic followings of their teachings have corrupted them, so I am a devout agnostic. the point is, if i argue against abortion, I do not bring religion into it, and I believe that makes for better discussion than much of the Pro-Life camp engages in. A million things I could say, but I will say this. I do not think that the people who are for abortion are either right or wrong. they have their opinions, and I will respect them, because what makes mine right or wrong? I will continue to oppose elective abortion so long as it is seen as wrong from my subjective point of view, but when I look at it objectivly, there are no answers or opinions I have to give. That being said, when I look at things objectively, I become something of a nihilist, so I try not to do it, as it is frightfully depressing.

 

Meh.

As unfortunate as the case may be, men will never have any say to what a women decides to do with her own body.

 

A friend of mine once told me a sad story. this kid came from the wrong side of the tracks, and his dad was a complete dead-beat alcoholic douchebag. he told me that his mother got pregnant, and wanted to keep the child, as she had no reason not too. The dad, however did not want to have to pay for another kid, as this would mean more food on the table and less beer. He threatened his mother and said if she didnt abort her child, he would beat her to smitherines and kill her, leave her, and all this other sadist shit. His mother became near suicidal before she did get her abortion. this was done not of her will, but of the will of a man. With abortion laws as they are, it is both legal and common (I read somewhere that it was as high as 20%) for abortions to occur at the whims of a womans partner. Does not a man have a say over a woman when he tells her to get an abortion so that he may dodge out of responcibility? Susan B Anthony said of abortion "It is child-murder, and just another way for men to control our bodies and our lives."

 

The woman could have left the relationship. She could have completed the pregnancy, and raised the other child in an appropriate setting. All she had to do was leave.

 

You make it sound so simple. Have you forgotten the possibility that despite all the harm the man did, she did love him? Also, he terrified her with his threats....she was AFRAID to leave him. eventually she did, but this was many years later.

 

I really don't see the difference between an early abortion, and a late one.
the DNA is all there....it's just as human, just as a live. It has eaten more is about all the difference is....

Also, it is NOT your body. It is a totally distinct human life. It is dependent on you.
But it is not you. different figerprints at a vey early stage of development.

But I am against the death penalty too....I don't like the State taking over too many so called 'rights"....turning into a freaking Communist Government where the State is the primary....this is America!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! of the people, by the people, and for the people !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

except the unborn people.............. :-(( selfish dames, scared of a baby.

ok..life is more difficult caring for a child. But, hey, killing a human life for an inconvenience...that is NOT a right. (no matter how often Trickster repeats it) Yes it is true there are not enough back up systems to help the pregnant mother. Yes the Catholics should have done more. But SEX is not a game.
It is your reproductive system, that's whay it feels good. Life is good!!
abortion is a real shame...in our town there is a 3 star restaurant right next to the abortion clininc (owned by the abortion doctor by the way) and that is GORTESQUE !!! that's why they say America has lost her soul.... you pro abortion girls are just being manipulated by life-less social structures.

 

If that body is not the woman's, then whose is it?

I have two words to say regarding your last remark here: CHEAP SHOT!!!!!! Who the hell are you to judge a woman's situation? You don't understand where she's been or what prompted her to make such a decision.

Now, I do agree with you regarding the state excercising control over the populace. I would also be reluctant to use the death penalty unless the crime was a heinous one for which the criminal shows no remorse! John Muhammad (the Washington area sniper) being such an example!

Something to keep in mind: Way back when, when a baby was born that had severe birth defects that were perceived to create a burden to the family, sometimes the mid-wife would smother the baby to death and tell the mother that the baby was stillborn. As immoral as abortion may be, I find this practice far more abhorrent!

Before you criticize, you must weigh the alternatives! Is it better for a woman to have an abortion than to kill her child after birth? What do you say to the woman in-I believe South Carolina-who drowned her five kids?

I agree that there need to be more support systems to help women in trouble. This not only includes providing a home for women who choose to carry their baby to term. It also includes simplifying the adoption process. It includes providing incentives that make abortion unnecessary in the first place such as providing birth control and offering sex education!

You mention the catholic church, which if you were to ask me has a very unhealthy way of dealing with sexual issues! This attitude also prevails in many faith persuasions of "conservative", authoritarian orientation. They feel that if sex is 'shoved under the rug', it will all go away. Sorry, but that ain't gonna happen! Much of the blame for unhealthy sexaulity must be placed upon the religious authoritarians for their loathsome attitudes in dealing with the subject!They need to provide for options other than the tired old abstinence one!

Sex is about more than just reproduction! It is about expressing yourself in an intimate way with whom you feel comfortable doing so! Granted, when you choose to do so, you should be responsible enough to take necessary percautions. However, if you take away the "option of last resort" and simply pass a law that you think will 'make the problem go away', you are going to wind up with social problems that will likely be more difficult to deal with. Social problems are NOT solved in governmental bodies, but in our minds and most of all, our hearts!

FTR, I do have problems with people profitting off another's misery, and I feel that many abortion doctors do this. If I were you, I wouldn't patronize this guy's restaurant.

You believe that "America has lost her soul." While I do believe that America has had a great deal of social problems that need to be dealt with, why are you simply pointing at America when there are societies around the world facing the same or perhaps worse social problems? Yes, abortion is not as prevalent as it is in Europe or perhaps some other societies, but many of these other societies have similar rates of sexual activity. As decadent as America may be, there are many societies around the world where I would never want to live!

Something to remember: In a perfect world, passing laws banning vices might be an option, but that world doesn't exist. It doesn't work for controlling guns nor drugs nor alcohol nor gambling nor sexual activity-the list goes on! It doesn't work for controlling abortion, either!

 

This is not totally true! Roe V. Wade stated that States could not prohibit abortion through the first tri-mester, but could prohibit it during the third. I can't recall what restricions were placed upon second trimester issues. Abortion was legal in one State before Roe v. Wade. That was New York which leagalized abortion in 1970.

 

I think...
that people should revert to more simple ways. Abortion is just another example of the complexity of modern life that hinders our coming to terms with humanity. This of course is not the only one, but it is a damn hot topic I must say. It has existed forever, yet only become a centre issue about 30 years ago...why? because now we live more complex lifestyles and have more complex technology which allows abortion to happen. Its all part of the clockwork way of life we in the west have adopted and thrust upon the shoulders those in the south and east. My name is what it is because I think that we should follow the example of the Ewoks and live as they did. They beat the bloody empire, and so can we. but star wars is not on topic, so back to abortion. my stance on the subject is that i hate absolutes. it should not be legal in all circumstances (like for convenience or careers or trivial shit like that that doesnt matter anyways) and it should not be illegal in all circumstances (like eptoptic pregnancies). I also dont think that a fetus is a part of a womans body, just like siamese twin A is not a part of siamese twin B's body, and seperation causing the death of one twin is only done out of the utmost urgency (when its either that or both die). I believe that this parralells abortion. what we have to realize is that abortion is the consequence of living this clockwork consumer life. we have lost touch with humanity, and ending life before it is born is the result of this, among many other things. The only abortion i am in favour of is that of this accursed neoliberal corporate hellhole we live in today, and I believe that when the wal-marts goe up in flames, good old Doctor Abortly will get far less buisiness.

 

abortions were around before technology.

 

Yeah. The fact that people call it immoral is irrelevant; all of us have different morals.

 

Yeah, talk isnt going to do a thing, nor is standing at a rally carrying a sign saying "keep abortion legal" or carrying a picture of the Virgin Mary (because unfortunately Pro-Lifers are mostly on crack and are unable to keep up a debate without bringing deities into the subject). I guess my number one problem with abortion is that it is one of the creepiest things I can think of, so perhaps the solution is to not think about it. abortion hasnt affected my life in a way I can see (aside from the possibility that mine, or anyones soulmate was aborted, or any such possibilities that are impossible to even begin to proove) and it is highly unlikely to affect my life in the future, so I am pro-avoidance I suppose. Abortion is a bummer, and thinking about it is a huge bad trip, so Im gonna try not to do it. Yes, I'll vote for a pro-abortion party, but only because the anti-abortion ones are all full of neoliberal war-hawks (anti-life). Perhaps if john kerry avoided the topic, we could have whacked Bush.

Everyone is pro-something in this arguement, and i think that pro-life and pro-choice are two very self rightuous terms, and I respect neither. we really shouldnt try to do anything but make abortion obsolete, in that i mean eliminate the circumstances to which women are forced to resort to abortion. i just wish that the two sides of this topic could try to discuss it reasonably without getting personally offended at one anothers opinions. thats another reason why i hate pro-life and pro-choice.

 

exactly..let's cut out any pleasure that women could get from sex.

 

.....ok.....I was talking about reducing poverty, rape, and attachment to careers or consumerism, which are circumstances where women find little option. To follow one of many examples, because women are too poor to support a child comprises about a quarter of abortion, thus eliminating poverty (it is possible to at least severly reduce it, if we follow a scandinavian example) would rduce abortion rates by 25%. thats what I meant by making it obsolete. I dont understand that responce at all, or its refference to what I had to say. so what did you mean?

 

I am currently six weeks pregnant, and only been dating the father for four months. I have friends that have had abortions. What I understand is that for some of them the baby haunts them and they still dream of the unborn child, others it seems as if it was a relief. If you have any thought about going through with the pregnancy, i would suggest that if you get a abortion, you might have depressed thoughts about giving it up afterward. I figure that since I know how to use a condom or, any of the many options for birth control, pull out, not having sex around ovulation, then it is something I manifested and hopefully I can find the unconditional love that i will have for the child more rewarding then the freedom of myself. Energy is neither created nor destroyed they say.

 

i was joking.