A rant on anti-Chrisian Wiccans.

To adopt the mythologies and gods of one culture is one thing, but to mix and mash is another. The Romans adopted deities all the time, but they didnt mix and mash the beliefs together, and they only adopted some deities from within the Empire. Thats normal, that is a legitimate claim.

They didnt, on the otherhand, go around saying "all gods are one god therefore I can worship who i want how I want because you cant tell me I cant". And they also didnt worship to Celtic gods, while they meditate on the Hindu ideas of reincarnation, while praying to the "Lord and Lady", and riding silver broomsticks.

Worship who you want, just dont demand or expect others to accept it.

And as to Romans in general, they usually are a shitty reference point for anything.

 

OOOOHHHHHMMMMMM! That is the divine ONE of which I speak, NOT a western or Abrahamic-style brand of monotheism. If indeed I do feast at the salad bar of religion(s), then know that it is from the perspective of someone who has backed up from the plate far enough to know that all that I picked at the salad bar is still held on A PLATE, the analogy of the divine for me. THE PLATE IS WHAT'S DIVINE...I'm not arguing whether or not my brocolli is more spiritually veracious than your cauliflower, dig? There is only one divinity/infinity from which all "gods" or "goddesses" spring...the fabric of all that is. I take much more of my "pagan" belief from Joseph Campbell's teachings, or even Carl Jung's. I agree with Heron that there is a certain innate, cultural draw to your ancestral deities, mine being those of the Asatru pantheon being of Norwegian and Saxon descent. I gain power and wisdom from Thor and Odin, but acknowledge that they are mere manifestations of that universal Om, as experienced by me because of my genealogy. The Catholic saints still hold certain appeal to my practices as well, because of my childhood disposition to them, for the archetypes they represent, not because I still have any ties to that religion.

I read all the great wisdom teachings and try to draw the parallels between them, AND the differences. There is much to be learned from all. To be closed minded to any is to suffer the same ignorance as those who you protest against, in their fundamentalism. This is not "fluff", or pink-bubble, tree-fairie Wicca Heron, but rather a lifetime of experientialism and acknowledgement of Blavatsky's Theosophist wisdom and the universalism of a Mckenna based DMT vision. I intend not to offend any, so know that I am only debating, and my love for all of you is real. Blessed be, Amen, & Namaste!

 

Who said emulate?

regardless, it doesnt sound like you are doing what I am talking about anyway, so my argument with you is pointless.

Do what ya wanna.

 

I just thought of another great example...As a long time practitioner of the martial arts, I can personally attest to the validity of cross training in multiple disciplines. Watch any of the UFC championship matches to see what I mean; whenever a fighter strictly versed in one "dogmatic" style opposes a mixed-martial arts practioner, the results always speak for themselves. I believe the traditional styles should be maintained to keep the "art" aspect of the martial art alive, the richness of tradition and nostalgia for an older, simpler world. But for combat effectiveness, one needs to train in the modern, multidisciplinary systems. Should Bruce Lee not have created Jeet Kune Do because he was "skimming the surface" of several styles? Should he have remained solely married to Wing Chun Kung fu? Insofar as keeping tradition alive and respect for the forebears, I agree with Sage-Phoenix, Heron and Shaman Sun, but I further believe one must branch out and use the wisdom of the ancestors as a platform off of which to build. We must not stagnate out of "respect" for those who came before and a shmaltzy reminiscense or wistfulness for the old ways, which would be the real idealistic travesty and "fluff" previously spoken of. Acknowledge and keep traditions alive, but grow at the same time. Otherwise, put on your scarves, gypsy costume and pentacles, and skip off to the Ren faire to show everyone how Gardnerian Wicca you are.

 

In religion, if you mix and match, gods get offended. Most of the people mixing have gods in their pantheons that have never been compatible.

In martial arts, you combine and offend people. Who gives a shit about offending people?

 

Interesting Heron....I really do dig debating you, as you provide valid points; there could be a difference in offending the deities and offending fellow humans. I have to think about how that would play out in my philosophy, because the deities are nothing more real than manifestations or personifications of certain levels of human consciousness. I have to consider how, in this instance, they could become "offended"...perhaps on a subconscious level, conflict at an unseen psychological realm?

 

To refer to them as nothing more than manifestations of human consciousness is pretty offensive to them and to people.

Do you believe in an afterlife?

 

I believe in reincarnation...the karmic wheel, spinning until we "get it right"...more of a Buddhist view. Actually, that's what made most sense to me as far as viewing the gods & goddesses....I learned about the manifestation aspect of them from a deep seated study of the Gelugpa tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. Make no mistake, a manifestation can be "real", just not in the tangible way that our limited human consciousnesses can fully grasp.

 

I was pretty sure that is what your view was.

First, what makes humans so special that we keep getting to try,
and why is coming back as an animal such a bad thing?

Those are two issues i have with the Buddha view of reincarnation.

Second, do you not believe in "ascention" of sorts?
Most deities, European especially, are ancestors who
have risen to power after death. They were outstanding
in some aspect, and was reveared after dying to the point
of godhead. After that, they were given certain attributes
by their followers. Lots of IndoEuropean born deities are
sometimes the same god, of differing culture, with a different
name. But always similar story, since it is a shared origin.

The Buddha was mistaken in his interpretaion of Hindu aspects of
reincarnation, and oddly correct at the same time.

The Hindu cycle only applies to the Hindu faith, none others. It was
a cycle put into place by their gods. Humans, as a species, arent
special enough for something to was its time continuing to recycle us
in the grand university, but on a microcosmic level, a gods followers
may certainly be so special, and not special in "better" or "good", just
specific.

Buddha taught that karma doesnt exist, and he was right in that it
isnt a universal law, only something imposed by their gods only, and
can be escaped. Dont worship the gods, realize that you arent victim
to an unescapable universal death cycle, and you will be released.

Neither I, nor my ancestors, have any reason to "release" ourselves
from that cycle, because that cycle never applied to us.

That is where Buddhism is flawed.

 

That's an interesting take on things...not wrong or right, but YOUR reality. You've created that as your reality by believing it, and power to you for that. That is what I mean by manifestation of consciousness; Buddha himself taught that you should not take what he said as doctrine, that it worked for him and you should try it, but if his system wasn't working for you it should be tossed. I took that advice and have taken only certain understandings away from the teachings, and have tried to make sense of others' teachings by applying what I learned elsewhere. The interconnected web of existence would dictate that to fully understand and appreciate "A", you also need to know at least a bit about "B" (although this could be a subconscious awareness and not necessarily a deep understanding). I was raised in a Catholic household, but know far more now about "christ consciousness" than ever I did back then! Lately, I've been really delving into Theosophism's teachings, and as mentioned, learning more about the Poetic Eddas of my Norse ancestors all the time. I believe the Norse pantheon to be the most "powerful" I've experienced yet. At a sumble at Starwood a few years back, I literally felt the physical energy coursing through me upon invoking Thor & Freya!

 

I cant stand that "your reality" shit man. Every 6 billion person on the planet is in a different reality? whats the point?

Is there no such thing as a truth anymore? or is everything dismissed as just someones view.

 

1) Humans have the highest level of cognitive ability & consciousness-awareness of the beings of the physical realm...that's why we are "special" enough to be able to try to break samsara, we are aware of it, and that is the first step.

2) It's not a "bad" thing, just a lower reincarnation on this realm, with lesser cognition, thereby lesser ability to understand the teachings and cycles. But not having that level of awareness can be a "good" thing too, because in the same sense that animals can't make huge jumps in the samsaric cycle, they also cannot slip too far down the ladder by having the cognitive understanding of knowingly and willingly being able to commit some act of karmic negativity. Choice can be dangerous, if the wrong path is chosen premeditatively or advisedly; animals do not have the luxury to "screw up" on that level. Very simply put, the stakes are higher at the human level of rebirth because of the subjectivity and intellectualism we are gifted with.

 

Ah, but "truth", without getting too legalese, is that which can be or has been proven. No "reality" of the unseen, spiritual realms can be proven on the corporeal plane of existence. We may see or feel a glimmer here or there, but not to the degree that tangible evidence or proof is available. When I say "your reality" Heron, I don't in any way mean it in a condescending fashion. I'm just saying that we are all "filters" of sorts, and that although ultimate reality is universal, it is filtered through each of us. "Reality" is perception, although there is an undercurrent of that-which-never-changes. Everything you have experienced and learned, your biological makeup, your ancestry, your culture and geography, and too many other components to mention, dictate how the "OM", the vibration of existence, the godhead, the web of all, is filtered and manifests in your life. Whaddya think?

 

I dont know what I think of it, i just know is nowhere near anything i could support or believe.

 

Heron, I'm just a little curious to hear how it is you purport to know what gods are feeling, especially other people's gods.

That really seems like a human projection to me.

You know what I think the deal is, man? I don't think gods get offended, because that is a human reaction to human emotion. I think it's you that is getting offended because you have difficulty tolerating people with a different understanding, worldview, and spiritual priorities than yours.

Heron, you are brilliant and educated and I admire your scholarship. But as far as the so-called "validity" of ecclecticism goes, well, sorry, but you're just going to have to fucking deal, man, since you have yet to conclusively prove how someone else's spirituality affects you - or the gods, for that matter - in any way, aside from you personally finding the aesthetics of the piddly little insignificant details not to your liking.

Sorry man, I don't want to piss you off again, but it had to be said.

Peace

 

Read mythology, then you will get a little insight into what gods think.

As to my comments on buddism, that is a part of the religion, its what i have learned from my studies. Ecclectic is one thing, but making up what you want isnt.

I am not speaking for any gods, just saying what I believe, and what i have learned.

Tell me, if you say I must accept ecclectism, then you too must accept a more fundamental approach to things as well.

I dont care what people get offended, but i speak in defense of my gods as I should as their follower.

If I am to accept that the Hindu concepts of "karma" and reincarnation applys to all, then do i also have to accept that the Christians one god is going to send me to hell for not worshipping him? Or that after death i will go to Vallhalla, or will i have to divy up to the boatman for my trip down the River Styx? There are different gods and different religions for reasons. If you mix one part, you have to accept all of it.

And, you DONT have to accept all, and you can pick and choose, the Christians can pick and choose their bible to fit what they want it to say. OR they could just do what it says and follow that.

So, with that said, which one of us is being intolerant?

 

I've read quite a bit of mythology, both ancient and modern, thank you.

I'm under the impression that mythology is written by people.

No one is telling you to "accept" or convert to anything, man. There's a difference between accepting something as your personal truth and staying out of everyone else's face regarding their own beliefs. I'm just saying you've got to deal, man.

 

It was, but by people with an understanding of their gods. Give credit to human knowledge, just because man wrote it doesnt make it wrong.

Not totally true, but there are truths hidden there to be found

 

Mythology is known to be full of human projections.

Furthermore, I'm also sort of under the impression that if my gods were so grossly offended by something I was doing, they'd probably let me know first, before discussing it with you.