A question about Catholisicm

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by cerridwen, May 24, 2004.

  1. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    No, actually there is only one passage, and it doesn't condemn homosexuality, it condemns men having sex with men.

    It's in the sexual code given to Moses in Leviticus 18. The emphasis here is on making sure the Israelites remain God's separate, chosen people. They're given a list of commands to avoid all kinds of specific sexual practices. The relevant one is in verse 22, where the Israelites are instructed, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable". The punishment for this sounds very strict: "They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads". But there are two other things we must consider. One is that the Hebrew word translated as "detestable" carries with it a strong connotation regarding idolatrous practices; this is lost in the translation. The other is that the death sentence prescribed here is also prescribed for a number of other offenses, including doing any work at all on the Sabbath (Saturday), which most Christians and Jews do.

    You either follow all these irrelevant Old Testament laws that do not apply to you, or you don't. You can't pick and choose.
     
  2. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    You might want to read Romans as well.......just for your future knowledge.

    At any rate, I don't think Gays are going to hell because they are gay, I have a hard time beleiving that, regardless of what most churches think.
     
  3. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    If most churches think that gays are going to hell then most churches are wrong, and are giving us intelligent believers a bad name.
     
  4. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    I agree, it's one of the few things I don't agree with Catholicism on, but my church does not say flat out they are going to hell, though.
     
  5. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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  6. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    Huck, thanks for the link!

    I'd love to tread all that, but have you seen how long it is!?

    It seems to conclude that there are some gay activists who have told lies, and talks a lot about gay rights. But that has nothing to do with my opinion. My opinion is based on the facts. I don't really care about gay rights, to be honest. But I do care about people misinterpreting The Bible.

    I've read the first part that talks about Sodom. The writer of that article says that The Bible keeps talking about men wanting to rape angels as 'perverse' and so clearly homosexuality is wrong. Surely raping angels is perverse enough, without it mattering whether they are male or female?

    If you could point out any flaws with what I said in my earlier post in this thread then I would be interested to hear it. If what I said is true, then how can you deny it?

    In particular, if it is so wrong for men to sleep with other men, then isn't it just as wrong for a man to sleep with a female employee? Why don't these 'churches' care about that as much as they care about men sleeping together? What makes one line of the Old Testament so important, and all the other thousands of lines so irrelevant?

    And what is the actual reason that God supposedly doesn't like men sleeping together? Everything else that God asks us has a logical reason behind it. There is no logical reason for God to care what sex people choose to sleep with or pair with. The only implication it has is that if you're gay you can't have children. But neither do celibate people. Why are there no alleged warnings about celibacy in The Bible?
     
  7. Jozak

    Jozak Member

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    I did not see anywhere in that article where it specifically said "Homosexuals are going to hell" or anything along those lines. (NOt trying to be difficult, I read the article several times)

    My point is most everyday Catholics are not anti-homosexuality or as vocal against it like a lot of fundementalists are, that is all I am saying
     
  8. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    I quote from another article:​
    Some have maintained that the sin of Sodom was a serious breach of the rules of oriental hospitality. The men of Sodom were merely anxious to interrogate Lot's visitors to see if their intentions were hostile (to "know" their credentials). Yet, in so doing, they flouted the cultural obligation of show hospitality toward the sojourner. The context, however, makes it clear that their demands were sexual in nature. Why else would Lot offer his own virgin daughters as a substitute (Gen. 19:8) and the Levite, his concubine, whom the men of Gibeah "knew and abused all night long" (Judg. 19:25). This is how Jewish and patristic sources, without exception, interpreted these texts (see, for example, Philo On Abraham 133<->136; Josephus Antiquities 1.200<->201; Methodius Symposium 5.5; Augustine On Marriage and Concupiscence 2.19; John Chrysostom Homilies on Genesis 43.17).

    But is homosexual activity even an issue here? Is the real concern not sexual abuse? Here Lot's and the Levite's offers of a heterosexual substitution are key. They indicate that while rape was considered a grievous offense, homosexual rape was doubly so--so much so, that the offer of one's own daughters (in Lot's case) was thought to be the lesser of two evils. The implicit condemnation of homosexual activity is inescapable.


    Again, it is not merely "one line of the Old Testament" that condemns homosexuality.



    Are you suggesting that God’s complementary design of humanity as male and female is entirely arbitrary? That’s absurd. The aberrant nature of homosexuality is self-evident:​




    Jozak,​

    Catholicism clearly teaches that all unrepentant sinners (including homosexuals) are eternally condemned:​

     
  9. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    How do we know that Lot offered his daughters because he didn't want the men to have sex with other men? To me it seems obvious from the text that Lot, like any decent person, would not want men to rape angels. Angels are holy, and their rape would be a terrible and perverse thing.

    Even if Lot was homophobic (which doesn't seem likely to me), Lot is not God. Lot was a human being, and human beings are not perfect.

    That wasn't my point. My point was: why is one of God's rules in the Old Testament so much more important than all the other stuff?

    My answer would be that the people who think God doesn't like homosexual activity are letting their personal feelings interfere with their objectivity when interpreting The Bible. Probably 99.9% of Jews and Christians do not follow all those old rules, so why should any of them care about one of the rules so much? The answer is that they are biased by their human instincts.

    I don't understand what you're saying. If God doesn't like us doing something, there must be a reason, right? So what is the reason God doesn't want men having sex with men? Does it hurt anyone? No. Does it cheat anyone? No. Does it insult God? No. Is it an indulgence that occupies people's time in an unwholesome way? No more than heterosexual sex with a condom, or masturbation, or heterosexual couples who spend a lot of time kissing and cuddling and doing little else.

    If you think procreation is of any relevance to the argument, why doesn't God hate celibate priests? God clearly doesn't hate people who don't have children. Why would he?​
     
  10. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    Dizzy Man,

    Did you even bother to read any of the articles I cited?

    Unlike kosher laws, the biblical condemnations of homosexuality are not confined to the Mosaic Law. They trace back to Genesis and are reiterated in the New Testament.

    Moreover, the harmful physical, psychological, and social consequences of homosexual conduct are abundant.
     
  11. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    Huck, both the articles you cited were extremely long. It would take me hours to read them, as I am a very slow reader. I have bookmarked them both. I scanned through the first one and responded to the parts I read.

    Although I appreciate you posting the links, I would find it more useful if you, having read them both, could bring to my attention the key points that you think I am failing to grasp.

    If I say to you: "if God doesn't want men to be gay, then why does he make them gay?", why don't you just answer the question in a simple sentence or paragraph, without citing anything. I agree that I can learn more from the articles, but surely if you wholeheartedly believe what you are saying then you should be able to immediately give me a straight answer in your own words?
     
  12. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    I don't believe that God "makes" people gay. I believe that we live in a fallen world and that we all inherit various sinful predispositions. Some are able to find deliverance from their homosexual desires and live happily as heterosexuals. Others are called to remain celibate. (I could cite some online testimonials from former homosexuals, but I don't want to overwhelm you.)
     
  13. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    Huck, I think I can understand your point of view.

    I know that God asks us to abandon many of the 'sinful' instincts we are born with, such as anger, greed and rivalry. Apparently, you class homosexual urges along with these others.

    But this would require homosexuality to be a fairly common instinctive desire, shared by most people to varying degrees (such as the desire to risk our lives for excitement); rather than the conventional view of homosexuality as a distinct condition that we are born with, such as people who are born blind or autistic.

    I think until homosexuality is understood better there's no way to say which is the case. There are an awful lot of bisexual men. I'm straight, but as I understand it many (if not most) men sometimes have gay thoughts. This would seem to indicate that it is a common instinctive desire. Although on the other hand there are some gay men who just seem to be born with the mind of a woman.

    And I wonder why other animals are gay? Animals killing each other is an important part of nature, but what purpose do gay animals serve? Homosexuality can't be a result of man's free will, since other animals don't have that free will and they are gay.

    But either way, whether homosexuality is a natural instinct, or a condition, what seperates homosexual desires from other 'sinful' desires such as anger, jealousy, pride etc. is that there is nothing negative about homosexuality. It hurts no one. There is no reason for it to be wrong, outisde of social tradition and heterosexual revulsion.

    Did Jesus teach us anything that doesn't seem to have a reason behind it? Everything Jesus says seems spot on, and it is fair and good. But if he did reenforce the notion that homosexuality is a sin, it was surely the only thing he ever said that has no reason (which would seem like an addition made by the author, to me).
     
  14. HuckFinn

    HuckFinn Senior Member

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    This is far from proven.


    Regardless, biblical teaching is clear. You obviously don't consider Scripture authoritative, but you should at least be honest about this, instead of pretending that the Bible is somehow ambiguous on the subject.


    First, I know of no "gay" animals that mate for life. Some animals might hump another of the same sex when given no other options, but that's comparable to the behavior of some sailors or prisoners. It's hardly an argument for the "normalcy" of homosexuality.

    Second, unlike animals, humans act by choice, not mere instinct.


    You obviously haven't read the Thomas Schmidt article I cited.


    Of course. You are the ultimate arbiter of moral truth, and Jesus must agree with you.
     
  15. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    Homosexuality is very common in other animals. Do a Google search and you will see for yourself.

    As far as I'm aware, humans are the only species who repress our homosexuality. After all, animals can't read The Bible, so how would they know homosexuality was sinful!?

    I'll read your articles over the weekend, since you don't seem to want to disclose any facts from them to back up your arguments!
     
  16. Stiff_Bizquette

    Stiff_Bizquette Member

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    well in our religion it is against old testament law to be homosexual that is why we think less of them it just so happens humans really point this one out, funny thing is its not one of the ten commandments and thou shalt not commit adultrey is but if u had a queer run for president and bill clinton run again guess who would win?

    umm sex was made for humans to live, we (me included) have made it more of an entertainment instead of sacred act that should be saved for marriage. it is to bring life into the world not for fun.

    about women, we dont discriminate against them really we simply dont let them be in the higher positions. america has yet to have a female president and no country i know of has lasted to amazingly long with a female running the government. (no offense i realize some women are good at this and some far exceed men.) the bible says the men should be in charge and in few instances the woman is given this position for example ehster.
     
  17. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    No offence, but you don't sound like you've read a word of The Bible. Like many "Christians" who are against homosexuality, you seem to be concentrating on one tiny line of The Bible, and completely disregarding all the hundreds of other rules, and the overall messages that are reenforced over and over in both the old and new testament.

    This is a good example of religion based around personal feelings rather than on what The Bible actually tells us.
     
  18. Stiff_Bizquette

    Stiff_Bizquette Member

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    how have u come to the conclusion that i havent read a word of the bible i answered the guys question. did he ask about all of the other rules? No. did i claim i followed the other rules? No. he asked why we think less of him and i told him. and what further confuses me is i did not even run homosexuality into the ground i said that it wasnt even as bad as we make it out to be when compared to thou shalt not commit adultry wich is one of the 10 commandments.

    i believe your problem is you just wanted to say a christian didnt read the bible i went easier on it than most any christian you will know and i backed it up with opinions that are against modern christianity.
     
  19. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

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    Yes but your post sounded self-contradictory. The Bible teaches us to love everyone and not to judge anyone. If you think less of someone because of the sex of whom they're attracted to then you are rejecting the teachings of The Bible.

    Fair enough. The 10 commandments are obviously far more important and you have acknowledged this. It just gets to me when people claiming to be Christians are bigoted and intolerant of other people's ways, when the whole point of Christianity is to be respectful, humble and tolerant towards everyone.

    I have never personally met a Christian who was against homosexuality. I have definitely met gay Christians though. 1 in 10 people are gay (supposedly) so 1 in 10 Christians must also be gay.
     
  20. Stiff_Bizquette

    Stiff_Bizquette Member

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    the bible does not teach us not to judge any one. we read judge not less ye be judged and think this. have u ever read after that though it says for wich measure ye judge ye also shall be judged.

    while this usually holds true it does not always hold true. Jesus was not at all humble when he went into the temples and flipped over tables. there is a time to be humble and a time not to be, a time to be tollerant and a time to stand up.

    well we must be from different places because here in east texas alot of people are against it, also if alot of christians were for it we wouldnt have this big debate of gay marriage and gays preaching. and the 1 in 10 thing well i think that is the media trying to fvck with our mind. the reason i say this is in Leakey where i used to live there were no open queers, had there been the people would have kicked them out of the town or killed them sad to say. and here in longview there are a few gays at the school, id say maybe 20 possibly up to 50 but i highly doubt that and there are 75k people in the town.
     

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