A question about Catholisicm

Discussion in 'Christianity' started by cerridwen, May 24, 2004.

  1. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    Now, I grew up Catholic, and I've yet to get a straight answer to this question, I never got it. (I'm not bashing the religion, I don't want anyone to think that!)

    How can a religion that promotes the idea of 'love one another' etc etc but promotes the opposite idea of discriminating against homosexuals and treat women as second class citizens? You either love EVERYONE equally or you don't, right? How can the true core teachings of Jesus be contradicted by the church?
     
  2. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    Do you have children?

    Do you teach them right from wrong?
    Do you have to say to them some things are wrong (for their good and protection)?
    Does that mean you don't love them?

    I'm not a Catholic by the way.

    I am a Christian who is very much for the true and full equality of women, which can be bourne out from the bible, with the correct understanding of the ancient Hebrew and Greek words, and the understanding of culture to do with women, (which Jesus frees from), and the correct study of the context of certain so-called difficult passages)

    See my web page...
    http://hometown.aol.co.uk/marionburdon/index11.html

    God bless :)
     
  3. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    I don't have children, but I would imagine that when I do, that I would naturally teach them what is right and what is wrong. It's human nature to protect children, right?

    I've checked out your website, it's interesting although doesn't answer my question. I've done bible study growing up, so I've a pretty good understanding of what the bible says and how different christian religions interepret them.

    I'm not sure why you asked me all that stuff about teaching them right from wrong for their protection... are you saying that telling them that there's something morally wrong with a certain group of people for their protection? Because honestly, that makes little sense.

    Why not raise kids with the idea that everyone - regardless of their sexual orientation or race or sex - is equal? If you're really fighting for the whole morality of a person, wouldn't it just be better to teach them to treat everyone equally?

    See, I was raised in a family where one uncle is gay and the other uncle is divorced and living with his girlfriend for about 10 years now... My dad, being the 'morally responsible' catholic that he is, chooses to pick religion over his own brothers and bible-thump against them because they're both living in sin.

    That's what makes little sense to me, it's people like this (my dad was just an example) who are at this whole confliction - and it's just that, a confliction - of morals over family. It's rather bizarre, if you ask me. But to each their own...
     
  4. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    I was just trying to point out that true love sometimes requires that we have to point out that some stuff is wrong and harmful, physically, emotionally or spiritually, as you said this...

    Real love doesn't always sound ''nice.''...:(

    of course, everyone does have equal value.
    But does everything, that everyone does, have equal value?
     
  5. Epiphany

    Epiphany Copacetic

    If someone is as religious as they say they are, they would try to have love for all their brothers and sisters. As far as the aspect of homosexuality, Since it's a direct quote from God ("Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable" - Leviticus 18:2). However, a true believer would remember to, "Love the sinner, hate the sin".

    I don't personally agree with many teachings of churches today because most of them have gone wayward from the original teachings of Jesus Christ. Jesus said he would build his church on Peter (the rock), but many different branches of faith have seemed to draw away from Peter's teachings. For example, Jesus said to do ALL things in his name, this includes baptism. There is not one single scriptural reference in the bible that says to be lightly sprinkled with water. The word, "baptism", comes from the Greek word, "baptizo", which means to dip, immerse, or bury. When John the Baptist started to preach baptism for repentance, he baptized them in the river Jordan. When Jesus was baptized by John, it says in Mark 1:9, "As Jesus came up out of the water", indicating he was submersed in water. Most churches won't baptize children because they do not have the concept of repentance. You cannot repent for your child, everyone must repent of their own free will. Alot of churches don't teach the infilling of the holy ghost. Isaiah 28:9-12, speaks of stammering lips and another tongue that God would give his people. Jesus said, in John 3:5, that one cannot enter into the kingdom of Heaven unless he is born of the water and the spirit. Jesus doesn't leave room for options in that statement. Peter says in Acts 2, to repent, everyone of you, and be baptized in the name of Jesus and you will recieve the holy ghost. Alot of religions add their own personal beliefs into the picture. Jesus said, in Matthew 15:9, "They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men". Not many churches preach about fasting, but there are several examples in the Bible where people fasted, including Jesus himself. These are direct teachings from Jesus, given to his disciples and told to be preached to all nations. But many different factions don't teach all of these things. Revelation 18 warns not to add or take anything away from the word of God. But, if you add or take things away from religion, is that not the same thing? Why must men forsake God's commandments for their own convient traditions?
     
  6. Sunburst

    Sunburst Fairy

    I always wondered that. It's like "Love one another, no matter what" and stuff, but then goes on to say how bad gay people are. You know what? No! It's not a frickin choice! If it was, I bet like 3 people in the world would be gay, if that. We're not choosing to be greedy and lustful, I'm not lustful. I'm not planning on going far with my gf until we're married, I don't go off on how I wanna screw every girl I see, there's nothing lustful about it. Also, the religious groups say how our lifestyle is so dangerous, and we all doi drugs and have random sex and stuff, hate to tell you, but straight people do it A LOT more than homosexuals do. It's like the bible says not to stereotype, but then goes off about how we're all the same, dirty lustful drug-using greedy anti-Christs.
     
  7. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    no Christians I know talk like that about homosexuals.
    If they did, I would have nothing to do with them, and the bible does not say what you think.
     
  8. Sunburst

    Sunburst Fairy

    I'm not bashing the bible (I'm Catholic if you wanna label it), I'm simply saying that almost all the Catholic or Christian websites I visit describe gays as lustful and dirty and Satanists and crap..
     
  9. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    Well, I visit Christian web sites everyday, (not Catholic), and don't find that.
    You're going to the wrong ones :(
     
  10. cerridwen

    cerridwen in stitches

    of course, everyone does have equal value.
    But does everything, that everyone does, have equal value?
    Absolutely. The true sinner is the one who discriminates other people.
     
  11. Smudge

    Smudge Member

    Everything?? really?

    Do you know what I am saying? I am being objective about ''everything.''
    Murder?????????
    Sorry- I must discriminate against murderers then, and child abusers and many other things people do...unless they 'repent' of them...then everything changes.
     
  12. meishka

    meishka Grease Munky

    wat about masturbtion? spilling the seed? or abortion?
     
  13. WayfaringStranger

    WayfaringStranger Corporate Slave #34

    well there is the idea that the catholic leadership has been corrupt for along time, hence the reformation. there is also hardly any evidence of women as second class citizens, i dont know where that occours, if you want to point out where it exists, ill glady check into it. as far as discriminating against homosexuals, i'd also say that this very misunderstood, on the part of the church, and on the part of a homosexual. there is alot of talk in the bible about sodomy and how its wrong. who can understand the mind of god? but i would think sodomy to be insulting to him, as his greatest gift to us is our sexuality and procreative nature. i think using our sexuality in a way that is not procreative, is insulting to him, and there fore destructive.

    now cerridwen, could you tell me what roll, if any, sodomy has in Wicca?
     
  14. Ayesha

    Ayesha Member

    good question, I think.
    Though my parents are catholic, they never told me it was wrong to be homosexual, they always tried to explain me that everyone has the same rights and should be respected no matter what were their sexual preferences...
    Of course the position of Church is different. The official position of the Church is very simple and full of prejudices, in my opinion. As you said and I totally agree with you, it goes against the teachings of Christ, because Jesus told us that we should love and respect eachother... He said that for all.
    Anyway, I think that you can be a catholic, but mostly you're a human being and you must have the capacity to decide what's right and what's wrong. So... You may be a catholic and still tell your sons that there's nothing wrong about being gay.
     
  15. SvgGrdnBeauty

    SvgGrdnBeauty only connect

    I agree. We can still have religious beliefs and have moral beliefs...that's why, although I am Catholic and I go to church...that there's somethings about organized religion, the politics of it that need to be done away with. (This is just my feeling...I don't want to offend anyone). If I support two people who want to love eachother, regardless of their gender...or if I believe that a girl raped on the street should be able to have an abortion because she cannot care for the child....does that mean I love Jesus any less? Does that mean I love God any less? I don't think it does. Religion is between you, your inner self and your God...none of these politics or the acts of anyone else should have anything to do with your spiritual connection...I'm not saying do away with the Church...but instead do with it to spread ideas of peace and love and not those of anomosity to those who are different to you...there's a fine line between direct translation of the Bible and not and I don't think that we are to tell someone how they should translate it within themselves....

    ...If that didn't make the least bit of sense...I'm sorry.
     
  16. Alsharad

    Alsharad Member

    I would agree, but if you want to remove corruption and sin from the church, you would have to remove EVERYONE in it. In effect, to do away with the corruption is to dissolve the church. So long as we are imperfect, corruptible beings, there will be corruption and sin within the church.

    If you told your parents that you loved them and then never obeyed their commands, would they believe you? Part of love is submission. If my wife asks me to go to the store at midnight, I do it. Why? Because I love her. If God sets certain standards and we blatantly ignore those standards, can we really say that we love Him as much as we should? It is important to note that God expects us to love homosexuals and those who have had an abortion. We can love the sinner and hate the sin.

    We should never have animosity to other PEOPLE. But we should definitely have animosity towards heretical IDEAS. We can accept people lovingly without have to agree with everything they believe. Since, as Christians, we believe there IS a real, absolute truth, we can test the ideas and opinions in light of Scripture to determine its acceptability to God (and thus to ourselves).

    You are wrong on this point. Hermeneutics is a science/art. We cannot just let someone re-translate it to their hearts content. If you mean that we should let them interpret Scripture in their own way, then I think you are still wrong. Why? Because it isn't our interpretation that matters. It is the interpretation of the author that matters on any written material. What does the author most likely mean when he says blah, blah, blah, etc.? Let me give you an example. Suppose you wrote a paper on how blue was the best color for a car and then I read it. Afterwards I talk to you about how I agree with you and that blue is a horrible color for a car. You say "what?! Blue is the best color! That's not what a wrote!" And I say, "But that's how I read it and I have already told everyone I know that you hate blue cars!"

    What have I done? Easy. I have misinterpreted your paper. Even if I pull passages in support of my position, I have misinterpreted it. How can I say this? Because in regards to that paper, you have authority. Authority means "right based on authorship." When it comes to your paper, you are right and anyone who disagrees with you in regards to the intent and meaning of your paper is wrong. This holds for all written material... including the Bible. Our interpretations, if they differ from the intent and interpretations of the original author, are flat out wrong.
     
  17. Dizzy Man

    Dizzy Man Member

    Cerridwen,

    I don't know much about Catholicism, but if they say homosexuality is a sin, and women are inferior, then it's pretty obvious that they've just plain gotten it wrong. I would strongly advise you think about changing to another religion. One that isn't sexist and homophobic.

    If God didn't like homosexuals then why would he make them? There is nothing in The Bible to indicate God has any opinion on homosexuality. Homosexuality wasn't even recognised until a couple of centuries ago. There was no word for it. So anyone who thinks they've read the word in The Bible is kidding themselves.

    There is a line in the Old Testament that says two men must not sleep together. But there are very many strange rules in The Old Testament, and if you follow one, you must follow them all:

    1. Two men must not sleep together.
    2. Men must not sleep with female employees
    3. Men must not cut their hair or their beards
    4. Do not touch a woman who is menstruating, or even touch a chair she has sat on
    5. Do not wear cotton-polyester blends
    6. Women must not wear a man's clothes
    7. Do not sell your dog and give the money to the church
    8. A bride must not lack proof of virginity
    9. It is a sin to be a descendant of someone born out of wedlock
    10. Do not get a tattoo
    11. Do not sow different seeds in one field
    12. Women must be quiet and submissive and cover their heads at all times
    13. Slaves must obey their masters and never want their freedom
    14. Do not eat shrimp or pork

    The Old Testament is believed to be inspired directly by God, but it was written by men, not God, and I'm sure it is not a flawless interpretation of God's will. I find it hard to believe God would want us to follow all those strange rules.

    But even if he did, they are no longer relevant since Jesus formed a new covenant with man. Christians do not follow these old rules. The vast majority of Jews don't, either. If Catholics follow these rules, then they obviously have never heard of Christ!

    If you are a gay man, and you want to observe the rules of the Old Testament, then don't sleep with other men. And don't shave your beard. And ask every woman you meet if she's menstruating, to make sure you never touch a menstruating woman.

    But whether gay men have sex or not is nobody's concern but their own.

    The Bible tells us that God loves everyone, and we should love everyone, and we should never judge anyone, because God judges them. It's repeated over and over in both the Old and New Testaments that we should love everyone and never persecute people because they are different to us. The Bible makes it perfectly clear how much God hates persecution. Any religion that discriminates against gay men, or against anyone, is a false religion.

    I strongly object to Catholicism, because of its view on homosexuality. But it's not my place to judge Catholics. I must love and embrace them, like I love and embrace all people. We must not persecuate anyone.
     
  18. SvgGrdnBeauty

    SvgGrdnBeauty only connect

    I meant...not so much the facts in the Bible or liturature, but the abstract themes that could be left up to interpretation. An example would be creation. OK, God created the world in 6 days and rested on the 7th. Well, say that when this occured...a day in heaven is different from that on earth...and so that a day in heaven could be millions of years on earth (at the time of creation)...so that the Biblical creation is right, but evolution is right as well...

    ...that's what I am saying. Who's to say I'm right or wrong either? I'm not asking you to change your ideas...I'm just stating mine...
     
  19. gnrm23

    gnrm23 Senior Member

    heh...

    as a practicing lutheran (elca), i wanna know why you're pickin' on roman catholics...
     
  20. Jozak

    Jozak Member

    I am a practicing Catholic. I was never taught women or gays were inferior, just that the sin of homosexuality was wrong.

    I think there is some confusion about women being "inferior". Women are not allowed to be priests, so that could confuse some people, but the reasoning is not becasue women are inferior to men. (Although I think women should be able to be priests, it just has to do with tradition)

    The Church has to set moral standards. I may not agree with all of them, but I can see why they do. There are passages in the bible condemning homosexuality, but honestly, I don't beleive that a good Christian who happens to be gay will go to hell. My second cousin is a Catholic convert who is gay, and is a great person. That man is not going to hell just becasue he is gay, hell he has been with the same guy for like 20 years--I give him props, a lot of straight couples can't do that!
     

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