A Power of the Self that guides and teaches

What a stark and horrible 'reality' the materialist inhabits - with no hope other than extinction.


And if you believe that everything is simply the action of chemicals in the brain, no love either.

 

Andrew, I find of late you have been verbalising things that I struggle to express. You just spoke my heart.

 

I'd agree its stark and horrible. But I do admire the bravery of people willing to truely face it.

 

..it just sometimes happens that way....

Thanks though for your kind words. I think that some ideas have such a power and force that they will find their expression come what may.

Really though, it's all related to the topic of this thread, of the Self within and how it is our constant guide and support.

It is That in me expressing, and That in you responding.
At another time the thing may work the other way around.

 

It's a bit like the bravery of a shark washed up on the beach.

 

Not really. The vast majority of people are afraid and avoid the truth we are all washed up on a beach biding our time. There may be an eternal personal soul for each body. I dont know. But I think it's more likely this idea was created to avoid facing the truth that personal selfhood dies with the body. I do feel there is a solution. It comes in the form of mindfulness and the realisation that everything is in flux and no personal, abiding self exists. In answer to Jedi, I think out of body experience have now been produced by scientists and probably a trick of the mind.

 

I don't know...I've heard that think about religious experience being products of chemicals in our minds...but there are some things that I just don't think science can explain...like those little things that move you...that are so beyond your head that you only feel them deep within yourself and can't reason them away... I'm not sure really what science says or doesn't say...but I think I just can't really fathom that the whole of human creativity, love, devotion, selflessness, and beauty is just products of chemical reaction and science...and even if they were...I can't fathom them without a beautiful light within each and ever sub-atomic particle...

...but you know...I'm just kind of silly and have some feelings that I just would like to believe are true...but I really just don't know... I guess all we can do is live...and see what happens...

 

It is interesting that many people who suffer from epileptic seizures interpret them with religious significance. I would conclude that with severe meditation practice it alters the brains normal functioning and produces a religious experience similar in theory to epileptic seizures.

I think love and compassion can be explained by our natural survival instincts. Evolutionists would highlight that we love our offspring and save others in selfless acts to ensure the survival of our species.

 

There's a possibility that some trance type states as experienced by yogis may have some correlate in altered brainwave activity, and also the fine balance of the brain's chemistry.
We know that ordinary physical exercise can produce higher levels of neuro transmitters such as serotonin, as well as releasing other so-called 'feel good' chemicals into the overall system, so it's possible that some of the highly disciplined practices of kundalini yogis and others may result in quite precise changes. It would be very good if more research could be done on all this.
Even just doing Hatha Yoga Asanas or postures seems to give the physical system a boost, and imparts calm to the mind.


Personally I don't believe that consciousness is limited to the physical. Whilst I don't really accept the idea of personal immortality in the sense of the ego surviving death, I definitely think there is something within us which is immortal. That is the goal of yoga.
That is the Self or Atman to which I was refering in the title of this thread. It is as though the individual self as we percieve it is actually only an instrument for this Atman. A puppet. Our job is to come to see who is the pupeteer.

That's a product of my own experience, and I have no intention of trying to 'prove' it to others.

 

That pretty much sums up what I think. Admittedly it is more a deep seated hope. I've had no experience of that Atman.

 

BBB, you struck a chord in me with that statement. I agree 100%. we are nothing but instruments of God. All this is his lila and we are the players. Whether enlightened with knowledge or ignorant of the truth, we cater to God's wishes one way or another .

 

I don't think it is just a deep seated hope. The lives of perfect beings like Ramana and Ramakrishna would prove that. These are men who experienced that higher self and who could guide others to that experience also. My time in Thiruvannamalai in Sri Ramana's haunts was special in that way - even the first time I went, when I didn't know anything about him or have any interest in spirituality.

Chemical reactions only explain so much. I know a woman in Woodstock, who can sense acutely the feelings and thoughts of people around her, and if she tunes in, even people on the other side of the world. I myself have had experiences of mystical thought communication with people very far away - just by intensely tuning in to that person.
I have experienced dream level communication with my Guru in the same way.
A young German woman living in Canada in the first half of the 20th century became the first western woman to become a Swamini when she dreamed of Swami Sivananda and went to India to find this man who appeared in her dream, although she had never met an Indian before.

There's only so much chemistry can explain.

 

Yes I agree it is more than a hope. I think that if one has aspiration to know the divine, and sincerity and you keep going, then one day one will come to have some experience.

I think also that faith is needed - not blind faith in religious dogma and so on, but a faith that there is a higher reality, and we can come to know it.

I agree with Bhaskar that the lives of many great saints, yogis and knowers of the divine can be a great source of inspiration, and can help to guide us to the goal. Since there are different ways, it's good to look at diverse things and try to find a path that is suited to our individual temprament etc. In this, the Self acting behind the scenes will guide us provided we are sincere.

With things like empathy, I'm sure we all have that to some degree - we can all tell for instance if a person is in a bad mood, but it's hard to pin down how we know.
I'm sure we've all had the experience of meeting those whom I call 'enegy vampires' - people who when you spend time with them seem to leave you feeling deflated and drained? The opposite is also true - some people's presence has a kind of automatic up-lifting effect.
I think we actually know a lot more than we realize - the trouble is that we haven't learned to pay attention to the 'still small voice within' because we are focused on the surface of things, and the din of the mind and feelings blocks it out. However, it can sometimes just come to the surface quite spontaneously, and if one tries yoga methods, it may come much more often.

On the subject of drug use, there's a passage in Sri Ramakrishna Kathamrita where He says that 'men who smoke the hemp always know each other'.
He's not necessarily advocating cannabis use, but pointing out that there is some kind of mystery in how we recognize those with whom there are subtle connections even if we don't know them or have any sensory data about them.

 

I was referring to my own deep seated hope. As I am ignorant of the Atman and any deeper self. I am certain men like Ramana reached something I have no understanding of.

 

Well one very good thing is that you are honest. In some people there's a kind of arrogance which prevents them from acknowledging that there is something beyond themself.

 

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'Once the resolve is made and kept to act in future for the higher not the lower self, progess is speedy, and the Path is entered which leads at last to the Eternal Peace. Though there will be many times fallings off and failures, yet once the link with the Divine Self has been established the disciple cannot fall again into the utter darkness. Something has been awakened within him which will never let him rest again in matter, and, though at times he may even fight against it, the inner pull will ever and again be felt, and like a big fish held on a slender line he will eventually be brought out of the stream to land, for, as Krishna says: "know thou for certain that my devotee never perishes".

Krishnaprem. 'The Yoga of the Bhagavat Gita' ch.9.

 

As Ramana would ask, "Who is it that is ignorant?" Self enquiry is very powerful that way. You can't escape the who question until the ego dies.

 

Faith and aspiration are very useful too.

Even if you have some experience, you still need both.

Few people arrive in one bound at the full realization - Exceptional beings like Ramana may do so, but for most people realization happens in stages. It's quite possible to have some experience but later on either to become overwhelmed by doubts, or turn aside for various reasons. This is what happened in my own case, as I've tried to illustrate in this thread.

So even if you have some experience you still need to have faith in that, and the inner flame of aspiration needs to be constantly tended.

A total transformation of consciousness at one stroke seems to be a very unusual thing.

 

True.