a few questions for any xtians still left in here...

seriously FUA, leave the bashing at the door please...

I already posted this in a thread in the A&A forum, wanted your opinion:

Thanx

 

WHEW! Where to start. Okay, I'll answer everything for you as best as I can.

1. God is not responsible for your nature. You have free will. That's the point of choosing your path. Imagine what the world would be like if we were all drones. To me, and you won't find this in any Christian literature, God created different paths for color, variety, and comparison reasons. Again that's my look at it.

2. I don't think God wishes to see the future then punish nonbelievers. It's the free will and choices thing again. It would negate the effect.

3. Really, I believe Satan could be a representation of "evil nature". He was the most beautiful of angels (our survival instinct) but fell away from God. Angels are talked about as protectors and messengers in the Bible. Sometimes these instincts play tricks on us through anxiety and anger when we don't need them to. Now some believe in Satan as a being. Which very well could be possible. In such a case I think it's the point of "wanting free will over God's will". Now granted that's sort of abstract. Because as Rush sang,"if you choose not to decide you still have made a choice." To me it's the first metaphor for someone who purposely does things against God's will for their own will. The striving for being your own god.

To Be Continued...

 

4. Why did God allow Satan to break away and do these things? I think really to test the strength of man. To see if man could overcome their "Satan" and live a good life. It wouldn't be just as unfair I think to give everyone a gift they didn't earn. What would have been the reward if that was the case? What would make people strive for goodness or justice?

5.I welcome questions and debate. I know I don't know everything. Not only do questions like this help others it helps me. BTW I'm not one of those Christians who think I have the market cornered on the truth. I realize I THINK I HAVE THE TRUTH. But, you might think the same thing. As do Conservative Christians, as do Muslims, as do Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Athesists, Satanists (Okay no one really takes them seriously just a joke Satanists!)...Who am I to publically denounce them?

BTW Thank you for such great questions. Really made me think. If I missed or left anything out let me know.

 

i'm not talking about our huam nature, i'm talking about sin nature.

You know...

Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge and god banned them from the garden of eden and now everyone descended from Adam has a 'sin nature'.
That's why xtians don't belive being a good person is enough, that you don't go to hell because of specific actions but because you are born cut off from god due to adams disobedience.

ex.

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me" (Psalm 51:5)

"The result of one trespass was condemnation for all men" (Romans 5:18)

"You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you" (Romans 8:9)

God doesnt' have to "wish to see the future".
Being onmiscient means that nothing is outside of his knowlede (past, present or future).
Being omnipresent means god is vereywhere at every time.

ex.

LORD, you have searched me and you know me.
You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar.
You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways.
Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD.

Where can I go from your Spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?
If I go up to the heavens, you are there; if I make my bed in the depths, you are there.
If I rise on the wings of the dawn, if I settle on the far side of the sea,
even there your hand will guide me, your right hand will hold me fast. (Psalms 139 1-4 7-10)

Right, what i'm asking is what is the origination of this jealousy and pride in Lucifer?

ex.

"You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, till iniquity was found in you."(Eze. 28:15)

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest side of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High." (Isa. 14:12-14)




Of, course this conversation assumes that the xtian i'm talking to takes the bible to be the literal word of god.

 

So many suffer (eternally) so that others might earn the right to praise god?

Oh, well then you are probably not one of the type of xtians this thread was addressed to, but thanks for the insights.

 

Well I guess it really depends on how you read the Scriptures.
The Jews have a set of commentaries on the Torah called Mishrahs. One of them is on Exodus 14, which covers the crossing of the Red Sea. In the Mishrah, God is sitting with the angels and watching the Jews cross, and the Red Sea flood back on the Egyptians. The angels are joyous and singing. God admonishes them and asked how they could celebrate while God's children were dying. The angels responded that the Hebrews had made it safely across the Red Sea, and it was only the Egyptians that had died. To which God replied, The Egyptians are my children too.
The Anabaptists and Quakers have a whole different outlook on the Bible and what discipleship means, There are historical persons such as Dietrich Boenhoffer and Andre Trochme, who are outstanding examples.

As for the theology part, try Boenhoffer's "The Cost of Discipleship", J.H. Yoder's "The Politics of Jesus", or Ron Sider's "Rich Christians In An Age Of Hunger".

As for those who bash, there is a Zen Koan -
"Those who talk do not know, those who know do not talk"

A Dhia, bronn orm suaimhneas chun glacadh leis na rudaí nach féidir liom a athrú, misneach chun na rudaí a athrú is féidir liom, agus ciall chun an difríocht a aithint.

Chewy

 

*BUMP*


I still looking for those answers.
i read some of the lit that the xtians asked me too, but they really didn't get much farther than "god's will is god's will".

 

Shane here's the thing...Strip all the divinity away at first. All of it. Think of it as philosophy. Then if you can wrap yourself around some of it try prayer for understanding. If things progress from there maybe there's something to it. Don't drive yourself crazy bro. Don't let anyone confuse you more.

There's all kinds of Christians. You can ask 10 Christians questions and get 10 different answers. You'll confuse yourself. They'll confuse each other. It'll put you in a worse state of confusion then the one you're in. Read some of The Bible for yourself. Check the web out for yourself. Read different viewpoints for yourself bro.

 

Didn't we discuss this about a year or two ago? I'll have to double check the archives. Maybe it wasn't you. But I know that I've discussed this on more than one occassion on this forum.

 

'If you love someone, set them free,' could answer most of the questions here.