A discussion about women in islam

Discussion in 'Islam' started by cabdirazzaq, May 28, 2004.

  1. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    I recently got in to a discussion about the position of women in islam, this happend in my school for about 2 days ago. So I thought I might as well post something about it here as most people are of the belief that they are oppressed and just waiting for some liberation. The situation for women before the propheicy of mohammed(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) was horrible, they[the arabs] used to bury their daughters and consider them useless compared to the man.
    81:8: When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned
    81.9: For what crime she was killed;
    Allah(may he be exalted) describes men and women as partners in helping each other to do good and to refrain from evel, it says in the quran:
    9.71: The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practise regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise

    33.35: Surely for men who surrender to God, and women who surrender
    and men who believe and women who believe;
    and men who obey and women who obey;
    and men who speak the truth and women who speak the truth;
    and men who persevere (in righteousness)
    and women who persevere;
    and men who are humble and women who are humble;
    and men who give alms and women who give alms;
    and men who fast and women who fast;
    and men who guard their modesty and women who guard
    (their modesty);and men who remember Allah much and women who remember - Allah has prepared for them forgiveness and a vast reward.

    Now look at these verses , does this look like oppression and injustice?
    In the chapter called Nisa(Women) Allah says:
    4.32: And covet not the thing in which Allah hath made some of you excel others. Unto men a fortune from that which they have earned, and unto women a fortune from that which they have earned. (Envy not one another) but ask Allah of His bounty. Lo! Allah is ever Knower of all things.
    And it further says in the quran:
    4.19: O you who believe! You are not permitted to inherit women against their will, nor to prevent them from marriage in order to get part of (the dowry) what you have given them, unless they commit open Fahishah(adultury). And live with them honorably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allah brings through it a great deal of good.

    2.228: And they (women) have rights (over their husbands as regards living expenses) similar (to those of their husbands) over them (as regards obedience and respect) to what is reasonable

    The prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) thought us to treat our women well- note that people back then didn´t give a thought about the treatment of women- and he said:
    "Let no Muslim man entertain any bad feeling against a Muslim woman. If he should dislike one quality in her, he will find another that is pleasing."
    And he also said: "Be kind to women." And in another statement: "The best of you is the one who is best to his family, and I am the best of you to my family". Family here includes ones wife. These sayings may not be very remarkable today but this was not the case for hundreds of years ago. While muslims had been learned by our dear prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) to treat their wifes with kindness and that paradise lies under the feet of the mother, people in china were told to obey their fathers then their husbands and if they are both dead finally their own sons. The year 1586, around 1000 thousand years after these sayings of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) christian catholics in France were still debating wether or not women had souls. With islam they were given the right to inherit and to dispose of their property and to reject forced marriages and to obtain an education. The prophets(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) wife was known for her knowledge of islamic law and medicine. It should also be noted that women here in Europe were not given the rights to even posses a property or the right to have a divorce until the 19th century. Women are the twin halves of men as was said by the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) but it should also be noted that the idea of equality between the genders as we often hear westerns talk about does not exist in islam but justice indeed does. Justice and equality is not the same, is it correct that the mother who bore her child for 9 months and then suckled him for a number of years should be treated just like the father in the matter of who the child should treat with the most kindness , my point is the statement of the prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) a man came to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said: ‘O Messenger of Allaah, who among the people is most deserving of my good companionship?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then whom?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then whom?’ He said, ‘Your mother.’ He asked, ‘Then whom?’ He said, ‘Then your father.’” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 4/13, and Muslim, 2548).
    People usually only speak about some duties that the muslim woman have to encounter without mentioning some things that our lord(may he be exalted) has commanded the man to do or not to do, such as:
    A man is not allowed to wear gold a woman may do so
    A man is not allowed to wear silk a woman may do so
    A man is obligated to pray in the mosque and he is given a reward 25 or 27 times better then praying home while a women can get the same amount of reward praying in her own room.
    One of the rights of the women which gives her the right to divorce if not fulfilled is the right that her husband should pay for her clothing and food. Our prophet(peace and blessing of Allah be upon him) said about the women: If a woman prays her five (daily prayers), fasts her month (Ramadaan), guards her chastity and obeys her husband, it will be said to her: ‘Enter Paradise from whichever of the gates of Paradise you wish.

    Finally I want to end with a quran verse:

    30.21: And among His signs is this that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you affection and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect.

    And Allah knows best
     
  2. Brocktoon

    Brocktoon Banned

    Well thought through reply Cabdazziraz... Thank you.

    Many critics of the Bible like to find select verses where some instruction or expectation is given for female Christians.
    They then cite that verse as some 'proof' women are to be subjegated or oppressed.
    They never want to select the verses which give men expectations, responsibilites or instruction ... or... select the verses which give women praise and describe how the husband is also called to answer to her at times.

    Maybe this is the case with Islams critics too?
    Often the only thing we hear about is how women are 'forced' to wear veils or be beaten by husbands.
     
  3. TheMoroccan

    TheMoroccan Super Un known

    I'll just copy and paste stuff I read on some other forums about Women rights in Islam.. by a Muslim girl..


    ** I was doing some reading into the sayings of the prophet muhammad (hadith) and found these in regard to women:

    "Let no muslim man entertain any rancour against a muslim woman. Should he dislike one quality in her, he would find another which is pleasing."

    "The most perfect of believers in the matter of faith is he whose behavior is best; and the best of you are those who behave best towards their wives."

    "The world is but a provision and the best provision of the world is a good woman." **



    **I'm a muslim woman; I've lived in America, England and Holland; travelled to Morocco (every summer), Egypt, Saudi ARabia, JOrdan and other muslim countries...and so FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE....i can honestly say that muslim women are generally NOT the poor victims of male dominance that western media would like everyone to believe, and if they are then it's despite Islam not because of islam.

    Someone asked what is considered good behavior? muslims believe that the Prophet was the perfect example of a man, and based on that try to follow him in all aspects of life - so we'll look at how he treated his wives and other women in his family to determine 'what is considered good behavior' for muslims.

    When Muhammad was 25 he was working for a wealthy businesswoman named Khadijah who was 15 years his senior. She was amazed by his beauty, honesty and integrity, and after observing him for a while she proposed to him. Not only did he accept (for a young man of his social position to marry a much older widow was rare enough in his time, even in our time) but he stayed loyal to her for as long as she lived (they were married for 15 years). He never married another woman while he was married to her (which was unheard of in his society) and when she died he was devastated. Years afterwards, when Khadijah’s sister came to visit him, he heard her voice at the door and began trembling because it reminded him so much of his wife.

    Muhammad never raised his hands or his voice to any of his wives (nor to any children); he treated them with kindness and compassion and spent equal time with each of them. And now I can already hear the voices saying “Oh my God he had wivezzzzzz” but lets look at this in context. it was an incredibly common, expected thing in his day for a man to have many wives - the higher the status the more the wives. He was a man of hugely important political rank - if you look at history there’s few to compare him with - and as such most of his marriages were to build political alliances and other similar motives.


    In pre-Islamic Arabia a man could have as many wives as he wanted, treat them all like **** and no one had anything to say about it. Islam brought strict limitations with it…the Prophet came with the message to VALUE women, and that’s apparent in every way he spoke to/treated the women in his life. Polygamy is certainly not only limited to the Islamic world, it’s a worldwide phenomena. even our taino ancestors often had multiple wives, so it wasn’t a new concept Islam was introducing. And in fact, the only peoples who practise it are the ones who practised it in the days before they were muslims (therefore you won’t find Asians with more than one wife)… I would NEVER agree to a polygamous marriage but I can understand those that do, because they have a completely different attitude to, and expectation from, marriage.

    Let me explain to you the status of women in Islam – in particular mothers. Muhammad said “Paradise lies at the feet of your mother”…and that pretty much sums it up. The Qur’an reprimands anyone who even says ‘oeff” (i.e moans) when their mother asks them to do something, and there’s countless stories of how the companions of the Prophet treated their mothers. One was once asked by his mother to bring him a cup of milk before she went to bed, so he went out to get it for her and when he came back she was sleeping…so he waited with the cup in his hands next to her bed all night in case she woke up and wanted it. Muhammad forbade people swearing at someone and cussing their parents, because it would be like you’d cussed your own parents – the person you’re swearing at is likely to turn around and say ‘yeah well your mom’s a …’
    Once a man came to the Prophet and told him that he was expecting company but only had a little food…he wanted to know who he should serve first (i.e his own family or the guests). The Prophet answered ‘your mother’…the man asked ‘and then?’…the Prophet answered ‘your mother’…so the man asked again ‘and then’…and the Prophet replied again ‘your mother...and then your father and then…” this was to emphasise the importance of the mother and what you owe her.
    It’s also related that he said “Shame! on him who sees his parents approaching old age and doesn’t enter Paradise by serving them.”
    There’s literally countless more stories like that that I could relate, if you want to read more you can try the books
    “And Muhammad is His Messnger” by Annemarie Schimmel, or
    “Muhammad” by Martin Lings. They’re both excellent.

    I will never forget the time I was walking with one of my friends in Morocco and we bumped into his mom. He got down and kissed her feet! And even though we were late for an appointment he devoted all his time and attention to her…if that’s not practising his religion then what is? I’ve seen soo much love and respect from muslim men to their moms/sisters/wives/female cousins/female friends etc… and that’s not to say that there aren’t ****ed up things that happen, there are, but like I said, that’s DESPITE islam – or through a twisted interpretation of islam. And personally I don’t think any American can even open their mouth about the treatment of women in other countries without taking a good luck in the mirror – America has the highest rape and domestic abuse rate of almost any other country in the world; it certainly outdoes a lot of muslim countries. **


    Peace..
     
  4. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    You may be suprised by the large number muslims in arab countries that consider the women in the west as oppressed. Summertime has closed in and it´s quite hard to avoid all the nudity you find in the streets these days. It appears as if they were selling their bodies, just like some cheap meat product. Its quite interesting how it always appears to be a woman[model] eating the food, wearing the clothes, driving the car in all these different advertisements. Should one weep or laugh when a large part of the girls in once class are on a diet even though they look like skin and bones? Looks and beaty has become like a disease in Western countries. But is it really freedom to be able to put on something lighter instead of covering one self from the [sometimes] foolish vision from men? No wonder the rape rate in the US is 89,110(1999) or 15.630(2000) in Australia(population 19.7 milj) while only 87(2000) in S.Arabia(pop 24.2milj)
     
  5. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    was there any crime in nazi germany or in stalins russia?
    in the west you have a media that looks for bad news and people arent scared to report crime
    this isnt the case in most of the islamic world

    couple of points about the earlier posts muslims claim that they improved the position of women they didnt
    mohammeds first wife ran her own business and employed men, in haddith muslims went to mohammed and complained about the liberty that non muslim arab women had and their women wanted as well
    lots of the countrys conquered by muslims had female rulers and in some case female warriors fought against the spread of islam


    under islamic law it takes two women to equal the testimony of one man does this make any sense or isnt it just saying that women are half wits that you cant trust

    a women can be beaten by her husband there have been number of muslim clerics arrested for teaching this concept in europe a concept they got from islamic scripture

    mohammed said that most of the people in hell are going to be women
     
  6. tom

    tom Member

    It is no wonder that that is the REPORTED rape rate in S.Arabia. How many woman were murdered in muslim countries by their local goverments because they were the VICTIMS of rape?
     
  7. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    slightly off topic Iran has the highest proportion of heroin addicts in the world

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/this_world/3791889.stm

    growing numbers of people with aids and a thriving prostitution and sex slave business which seems to involve a lot of islamic clerics running girls for sale into places like saudi
     
  8. cabdirazzaq

    cabdirazzaq Member

    I don't know, why don't you tell us?

    Nr.1 Iran is ruled by shia and their law is different from the one we use. The muslim countries in general are not ruled by muslim law and many of these countries apply laws which are strictly against muslim teachings.

    Nr.2 The crime situation in the west, especially in the states is quite horrible as to begin with, such as:
    Burglaries: US- 2,099,700 (1999) Netherlands 91,146 (2000) S. Arabia 11 (2000)
    Murders: US- 12,658 (1999) Netherlands 183 (2000) S. Arabia 105 (2000)
    Robberies: US- 409,670 (1999) Netherlands 18,630 (2000) S. Arabia 598 (2000)

    Nr.3 It should also be noted that the Netherlands has a small population consisting of only 16milj people yet the country has alot of crimes, there is no real difference in all the other western countries. I did understand your argument concerning the small rape rate in S. Arabia and you said it was because of people who was afraid of reporting it, but please answer this question. Is any normal, sane and healthy person who gets his home robbed not going to report it?

    Nr.4 The aids situation is alot worse in the Western countries than in the muslim ones. It is you people who have started engaging in prosutition , adultery, homosexual acts and all those aids spreading things.

    I want to end this with a quotation from my dear prophet(peace and blessing be upon him)

    If lewdness exists among people and then appears as a common and open practice, plagues and new diseases which did not exist before will spread among them. [Ibn Maajah, Al-Hakim]
     
  9. 1. I think Johnny2Mad is pretty foolish. One example of his misdeducation was that Islam means Submission when actually it means Peace.

    I think that he needs to find a local Mosque and approach them POLITELY and ask to learn more about Islam first hand and not from Christian fundamentalist websites. Or he can even get serious and journey to Arab countries instead of just sitting behind his computer screen spreading hate and ignorance.

    2. I come from an Arab family that is Muslim. I have also traveled to a couple of Arab countries.

    Not all Muslim women are treatedbad as America Propaganda would like you to believe. Alot of Arab countries treat women real good, such as driving, high profile jobs, not having to wear hijab (scarves), etc. Almost everything that we are able to do in America. There are situations where husbands are abusive, but you find this in all religions.

    Muhammed was not bad to his wives. I remember reading a hadith about how he used to race his wife home from the Market.
     
  10. Oh and there isnt a sex trade in America??? Prositues, strip clubs...Where??? Drug Addicts, and corruption?? No way. America is the same as many countries if not worse when it comes to corruption!
     
  11. sarsabz

    sarsabz Member

    [​IMG]please excuse me if you dont understand my writing,because i dont know english.
    doubtlessly shia answer to any question because it composed of wisdom,natural and inspiration.
    but,answer this matter:
    slightly off topic Iran has the highest proportion of heroin addicts in the world
    from jonny2mad.
    in iran (like in japans and very other region)in reign of 'mohammad reza pahlavi'(befpr republic)usa spread a lot of heroin and opium between the people,just for usa can exploit iranians.
    a addicted never can fighting.pity,pity,and very pity that i cant speak and write english.if i can i tell you very mistry and alot of trues.
    a fish cant see a ocean from above.
    if i wear a mask ,i can fool,the world,but i cant ,fool my heart.
     
  12. Vae Victus

    Vae Victus Member

    It's my opinion that women in both religions are treated as inferior to men, and should start applying a little self-criticism and critical thinking. But that's tantamount to blaming the victims--these women actually think this is the way things ought to be. I don't know. It's frustrating. How do you free a person that doesn't know they've been captured? Maybe I'm just forcing my ideals on others.
     
  13. jonny2mad

    jonny2mad Senior Member

    ********



    Cosmic butterfly you could use the word pacification or submission if you wish.



    And every other point that I have brought up that you said was untrue I have proved to be true using Islamic scripture



    You said that Mohammed wasn’t a slaver or kept slaves I showed you were wrong.

    You didn’t know he was a paedophile or a torturer and lots of other negative stuff about him and you have not been able to prove me wrong on any of these or other issues which I would say are the more important issues

    I don’t know how many times I have to tell you this but I am a agnostic that borders on being a atheist . I am not a Christian I don’t think that I have linked to one Christian website when discussing Islam with you

    The sites I’ve used are all sites set up by people who were born Muslims read Islamic scripture and found Mohammed to be a very cruel, immoral man a liar and not a prophet most of these people are now atheists or agnostics



    Basically be very aware that if you go to your local mosque they are going to lie to you and give you a lot of flim flam



    my advice if interested is ask some hard questions if you point out that Mohammed found small children sexually interesting and you have the scripture that shows it

    Does it really matter whether its polite to talk about it



    The scriptural record says Mohammed tortured people and had sex with at least one small child



    we have her personal account in several places in what are considered the strongest historical records that we have of Mohammed



    He kept and made people slaves now this record doesn’t come from Christians it comes from people who in many cases personally knew him and followed him



    all the threats of hellfire and promises of virgins after death don’t apply if the man giving those threats and promises is a fake



    ************

    if the best you can say is there are some Arab countries were women can drive a car or have a nice job it isn’t very much Islam has held back the position of women

    lots of the leaders and warriors that fought against Islam were women Mohammed’s first wife had him working for her

    Why do you need two womens testimony to equal one testimony of a man?

     

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