2020 Election

Discussion in 'Politics' started by WritersPanic, Jan 1, 2019.

  1. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

    Please don't quit. We Democrats need you here.
    MeAgain and scratcho like this.
  2. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

    If this HF becomes an instrument of the right winggies then it is no longer a Hippy site.
    Flagme15 likes this.

  3. That's always been one of the more curious assertions I have seen on this site; that hippy always has to mean left wing

    How many people that went to Woodstock do you think, ended up finishing University to become lawyers, accountants, bank/hedge fund managers etc
  4. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    I think it's useful to question everything, even hippies, who were never known for their intellectual prowess. Free speech is a wonderful thing, but whether or not hippies were for it seems pretty irrelevant. Open-mindedness is something I consider a good thing, but we need to distinguish it from being uncritical. You ask "shouldn't we question authority?". I think it's good to question authority and everything else up to a point--but when it comes to defying stop signs or showing up with AR-15s to sessions of the legislature, I draw the line. Our freedom of speech is protected from government by the First Amendment, but the Supreme Court tells us that some things considered speech are not protected: fighting words, for example; obscenity; incitement to riot. And the First Amendment protects us only from government interference, not from private internet platforms. Should we allow HF to be used like 8-chan to rally white supremacists, or disseminate propaganda from foreign agents? I'm all for employment for Macedonian teenagers, but if they want to mess with our politics I see no reason to help them out.

    It's a fine line the mods must walk between excluding of viewpoints they don't like and taking measures to keep the site from being commandeered as a propaganda platform by partisan hacks. Last night there were a couple of posts on the thread Joe Biden score board that I thought skirted the edge of credibility. One was by OnceBurned, questioning, once again, whether or not the Sandy Hook massacre was real. That conspiracy theory is particularly cruel because it suggests that the bereaved parents and their dead kids were crisis actors faking it. As a result of the demented actions of Alex Jones and others in disseminating that lie, the parents were subjected to death threats and harassing phone calls. They sued Jones and he's tried to backpedal.
    Alex Jones Can't Stop Losing Court Battles Against Sandy Hook Parents | HuffPost
    Families of Sandy Hook shooting victims win legal victory in lawsuit against InfoWars, Alex Jones
    Sandy Hook families gain victory in lawsuit against conspiracy theorist Alex Jones
    Alex Jones Loses Sandy Hook Court Appeal, Must Now Pay Nearly $150,000 In Legal Fees | HuffPost
    Any reasonable observer would put this in the same category as the Pizzagate story cooked up on 4-chan that made the rounds on this site during the 2016 election campaign. But OnceBurned has resurrected it, and we must, yet again, present arguments and evidence as to why we think it's bogus, or let his groundless claim stand unchallenged. Note: he doesn't feel compelled to present arguments and evidence as to why he thinks it's real I take it you don't think that he should have to. To his credit, this time his post has at least a shred of substantive content, as opposed to the usual memes from right wing sites and epithets and taunts of the kind one hears at sporting events.

    The other item, on the same thread, that I thought was outrageous was a cartoon posted by Six-eyed Shaman, depicting Obama as a snake and reviving, among other things, the "birtherism" charge against him. Does Six believe for a second that the charge has substance? I think not. I think he posted it because he thought it would short-circuit thought and further his political cause.

    In the interest of promoting free exchange of ideas, I wouldn't do anything to "censor" even these extreme expressions, even though I don't think either of them were made in good faith. I do think we need to be wary of trolls, and not to be hesitant to take action when frequent flyers cross the line--like that Nazi we had awhile ago with all the ((( ))). I see no point in trying to play by Marquis of Qeensberry rules when the opposition feels free to bite, gouge and hit below the belt.
    stormountainman and Tyrsonswood like this.
  5. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    That was then. This is now.

  6. ...well...that...and there is nothing left to argue about

    Forget about the forums, in the real world, watch them totally dump on Biden in the coming months, and it won't be just Republicans / Trump supporters that do it

    Democrats should have come up with a far better candidate, it's as simple as that
  7. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    In the real world, Biden so far seems to be holding his own. It's a binary choice, and he'd have to go some to be less desirable than Trump! Even some of my MAGA hatted friends concede he seems harmless. In our present Brave New World, harmless isn't so bad.
    scratcho, MeAgain and stormountainman like this.
  8. MeAgain

    MeAgain Dazed and Confused Staff Member Super Moderator

    Au contraire.
    True hippies followed the likes of R.Buckminster Fuller, Alan Watts, Blake, Whitman, Emerson, Thoreau, Herman Hesse, Oscar Wilde, Aldous Huxley, Richard Alpert, Martin Luther King Jr., Alvin Toffler, Frances Moore Lappé, Steward Brand, Rachel Carson, Kurt Vonnegut, etc.

    Just one example:
    stormountainman and scratcho like this.
  9. 6-eyed shaman

    6-eyed shaman Sock-eye salmon

    Imagine still being a Biden supporter working damage control right now.... :grimacing:
    Tishomingo likes this.
  10. sara2001

    sara2001 Members

    joe biden's voice is really rough, not at all nice to listen to :persevere:
  11. stormountainman

    stormountainman Soy Un Truckero

    Very true. I second that. And I liked Robert Pirsig back during the 1970s. I also liked the English writer who wrote The Seeds Of Change.
    MeAgain and scratcho like this.
  12. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    Imagine still being a Trump supporter working damage control right now!
    stormountainman and Flagme15 like this.
  13. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    I was talking about the hippie on the street, who probably never heard of those dudes. Emerson, Thoreau, Hesse, Wilde, Huxley, Rachel Carson, etc. may have been kindred spirits, but a little early for the "true hippie" label Why not throw in Jesus, the Buddah and Socrates? There are plenty of true hippies around right now, about to head off for the Idaho Rainbow Gathering of the Tribes to give each other Covid-19. I think I'll sit this one out.
    WritersPanic likes this.

  14. This may initially seem off topic, but bear with me

    This appeared on our main (newscorp) news site today, a site that has been towing the government line for the most part the last couple of months.

    It contains two things; an obvious deviation from the majority opinion that schools shouldnt re-open, and the articles main focus; an experiment by a think tank on testing how genuine facebook has been on handling fake news.......

    "And so how did the most vital role of society – that of raising and educating its next generation – get arbitrarily shut down or suspended on the basis of no hard evidence nor top-level medical advice.

    How is panic and fake information spreading so far and wide? How do we have supposedly educated people demanding the shutdown of educational institutions with no evidence to support it? And how do we have genuine concerns about the impact of such shutdowns likewise overtaken by lunatics who believe coronavirus is a myth altogether? Or caused by the 5G network? Or a conspiracy engineered by Bill Gates?"

    Facebook’s fake news fail

    I quoted the parts about the reversal in logic to get the schools to re-open. Have a little browse through the story for the details of the facebook experiment

    My main point being there is a third player nowadays that isnt aligned to right or left politics, but the almighty advertising dollar, and not just facebook, tik tok is one where the vast majority of adults have no clue whats actually going on inside, who is getting influenced by whom

    The three main curveballs coming up to the election are

    1: As Restrictions get eased and disaster doesnt strike, you will have a hell of a lot more people asking why drastic lockdowns were necessary in the first place. And they will be blaming those that pushed the lockdowns the most

    2. Is anyone actually in tune at the moment to what most young people are thinking?

    3. Come November, you will still probably have 10% unemployment, up to $40 trillion public debt ( we still have a lot of bailouts t? o come), you really believe Biden is going to be the lesser if two evils in that situation? When his comrades are holding back bailout money to save the trees and will probably start talking about identity politics again
  15. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    Yep. At the risk of repeating myself, Trump is the incumbent, and if previous patterns of voting behavior over the centuries continue to hold, he'll get blamed for a bad economy just as he took credit for the previously good one.
    Two Reasons for Trump to Worry About November
    Trump’s Reelection May Hinge On The Economy — And Coronavirus
    If they don't, and reelect him, they'll fully deserve the devastation that will befall them.
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 6:55 PM
    stormountainman and MeAgain like this.

  16. Voting behaviour over the centuries?

    Lets not get too ridiculous, lets just stick to the last 50 years, how many times in the last 50 years has a President not won a second term during economic downturns?

    I want to see what you are basing these "previous patterns" on
  17. @Tishomingo I think what might happen is the problem with the economy won't necessarily be blamed on him. And he will deflect any responsibility and blame it on the Chinese like he already is. Can we see through it? I think so, but that will not effect most of the republican electorate. They will find it very easy to turn a blind eye so long as he can keep up the storyline. If there's a narrative to repeat, some people are probably going to repeat it.

    This election also has the potential to get extremely sophomoric with accusations of sexual assault, and rehashing of impeachment. We have a lot riding on the election, but to be an honest American isn't really working if all they do is sling mud. I don't have any attention span for it. Politics aren't worth it if the people running the show are ruining our public image by behaving like children calling names.

    I find it absolutely abhorrent and cannot/will not ignore it. The democrats need to be the adults in the room. If we can't manage that (it seems really fucking simple) then my perspective goes to shit & I don't have a good move. I can't steer the narrative anywhere but on to something else if they can only belittle each other and there is no sign of mature debate anywhere in sight.

    The economy is terrible because of coronavirus lockdowns which republicans have made clear they are against. Democrats are for the health of the American people and are willing to change the shape of economics for the foreseeable future to protect them.

    I see two ways forward: 1) Reopen any old time and let people die, or 2) reopen later, and spend in the interim with a plan to pay it back through taxation. (hint: it's a false dichotomy...)

    Ok, so there must be some kind of middle ground there somewhere that we just need to sort out. But I'll be honest. I prefer that we extend the quarantine/lockdown/stay-at-home for until there's a vaccine. If the government can't fix this, nothing can.
  18. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    Well, G.H.W. Bush ("It's the economy stupid") comes immediately to mind. He had been wildly popular after Desert Storm, but an economic downturn did him in. How many economic downturns have their been? Carter lost in 1980, during the "double dip" or W-shaped recession. Obama won re-election during a rocky period in 2012, but the economy was on the upswing after the recession inherited from G.W. Bush. If we go back farther, of course, there was Hoover and the Great Depression. In fact since the Civil War, only one president has won re-election during a recession occurring in the later part of their first term: McKinley (and he was assassinated six months into his second term by a man who had lost his job). The other four presidents who ran for a second term during an economic downturn— Taft in 1912, Hoover in 1932, Carter in 1980 and G. H.W. Bush in 1992--didn't make it. Truman in "48 may be another exception, but that recession was just starting in November when Americans were going to the polls. It's arguable that Calvin Coolidge and Teddy Roosevelt were exceptions, but both were vice presidents who took over from an elected incumbent and ran for a second term on their own. If you include all presidential elections ( not just presidents seeking reelection), the party in power has lost 13 of the last 19 races in which there was a downturn. Maybe Teflon Don will defy the odds once again, since he's a miracle worker and a man of destiny. Maybe not.
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 9:58 PM
    stormountainman and Flagme15 like this.
  19. Tishomingo

    Tishomingo Members

    He'll certainly try, as usual! The Republican electorate alone isn't going to re-elect Trump. Unlike most Presidents, he has concentrated on his base and hasn't tried to broaden his appeal beyond that. Polls indicate he's losing to Biden in the battleground states. https://www.usnews.com/news/politic...eground-states-as-coronavirus-wears-on-voters

    But we'll have to wait and see. He tends to cheat, so there's that.
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 10:22 PM

  20. Any format like this; messageboards, the main currency is site traffic; ordinary members / users. They are always the boss

    13 out if 19, with other factors to take into consideration, hardly a slam dunk in the argument that there is a pattern to the incumbent being blamed at the polls for a downturn
    Last edited: May 23, 2020 at 11:39 PM
    WritersPanic likes this.

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