2000 American Soldier deaths

2000 not enough for you then (not to mention the 30,000+ Iraqis and tens of thousands of ne'er mentioned permanently disabled on both sides)?

Obviously more have to die and be maimed on both sides before the complacent and the apologists will admit it was a criminal act founded and perpetuated on lies, just as was Vietnam.

 

I was a 98 bravo in Vietnam. I carried an aid pack and was a squad medic. I was an RA that is a regular army volunteer. Why did I volunteer because my dad did and his brothers and my half brother and my grandpa and damn near every other male in my family. We are southern white trash. Most of us are from Scotland or Ireland to start with and we fight all of this countries wars. I had people that died on both sides of the American civil war. Now you think that General Westmorland asked my advice about winning the hearts and minds of the people? Do you think that any of the grunts in Iraq have any say in how the war is going? They took the kings dollar and they do the kings work. If you do not like it than change the king. However, you have to support the individuals that are in your armed forces. This is a bad war – we need to figure out a way to withdraw. But a country that hates its troops is asking for the troops to decide that maybe they should be running things. There are too many signs already that the current administration is thinking that way. Talking about using the military and homeland security to act on disasters and epidemics. The people need to keep the military, the low level grunt part of the military, on the side of the people. This country is not immune to a junta. In addition, talking about how you want to see American troops die is not going to read well in Bagdad. And all of our troops can read.

 

It's not any of our responsability to make murderers feel good about themselves.

 

yep

 

Any sources to back your figures. No, you don't. People, can we please man up and stop spitting out this conspiracy theorist shit.

I have a slightly used car I want to sell you.

 

As if linking on the internet is proof.

 

Poor MM. Like a pullstring doll he chants a mantra of "conspiracy theory" to every uncomfortable issue he would rather not face.

Best you put away your misplaced slogans and open your eyes to what is an actual, most assuredly ongoing, and empirically verifiable reality. Just because the Pentagon and its media cohorts have sanitised the references from mainstream reporting makes it no less true. Such censorship is nothing new in the land of woefully misinformed.

And inagoda, you spout more than enough naive, neo-colonialist bullshit to keep these forums full all on your own. Clearly you have yet to be on the receiving end of Washington's idea of "liberation". Do be sure to come back and tell us how wonderful our interventions are when you too have been graciously afforded a front row seat to a three day airstrike upon your city, neighbourhood, or your own residence. Or perhaps when you have had your door kicked in and your family members dragged out or abducted on some anonymous informant's fingerpointing, only to find yourself whisked off without trial to indefinite detention and perhaps our own brand of administration approved torture.

Where would the world be without the scores of illegal invasions and covert ops ordered by successive administrations on weaker nations and non-preferred leaders since the end of WWII? Well...

1. Iran would have avoided the 25 years of brutality under The Shah that led to the fundamentalist reactionary backlash, not to mention that by now it would have had a long and fruitful democratic tradition beginning with Mossadegh

2. Chile would have been spared decades of brutality under Pinochet and a much more socially just development according to its own democratic will.

3. Cambodia certainly would have far less dead innocent civilians and would not have languished in obscurity, cut off from the world community for refusing to allow the Khmer Rouge a roll in the governance of the nation (a fact repeatedly demanded of it by both US and UK administrations from the late 1970's through to late 1980's)

4. Timor might not have suffered the atrocious massacre by US-armed and supported Indonesian troops...

And the list goes on for anyone who cares to open their eyes to reality rather than living in their protected ideological bubble of PR and spin.

 

How grotesque that the Yanks count their dead, but refuse to count civilian dead! The bastards don't care for any but themselves. And now the Prez says it's gonna take "greater scarifice." That reads
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here here!

 

Everyone that posts on this forum, from whatever country, has a military member, who serves in their name. Don’t like it – stop paying taxes and take the consequences. Take to the streets and demand that your government disband your armed forces. Take up arms against your government. Do something. But do not sit quietly in acceptance of your government’s actions and then call military members names. I believe that the US should get out of Iraq. I believe that crimes were committed in my name. I have stood in protest against the wars that the US has fought. However, I have never confused the followers with the leaders. The 18 to 20 Y/O kids in Iraq are murderers by no definition of the word. The war needs to be stopped and they need to be brought home to do work that is more useful. But unless you are a tax resister facing jail, they are paid with your dollar and serve in your name.
If you read this from outside the US then your country also has armed forces and they act in your name. If you are able to read my words, you probably do not live in a dictatorship. That means that you can take the power to control your government. Are you able to tell me that in the history of your country your solders have always fought nobly and well?
Social change is made by inclusion not by fragmenting into hostile groups. You might find many a willing ear in the US military. However, they will not listen if you start the dialog by calling them names.

 

Murder: The unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Because what America has done is oh-so-legal.

And I wouldn't try to compare America's military history with anybody but Nazi's, because you won't come out favourably.

 

The people who joined the army, did their 4 years or whatever they signed up for, left the army, and got a letter in the mail telling them for no good reason they had to come back to Iraq, were forced to go there. What about the national guardsmen who thought they would be defending our country and helping out at Katrina who were forced over to Iraq, the first time that has been done since vietnam. I do agree that americans don't sympathize about the dead iraqi civilians as much as they should, but you cannot say that none of these soldiers were forced into this war.

 

To reiterate:

Joining any army with a track record as bad as America's is signing up for killing innocents and unjust wars. Ignorance is no excuse.

 

well any violent deaths are bad. thats what i believe.

 

Yeah, but what America has done to Iraq is the equivalent giving a man a bat and telling him to beat another man (Iran). And then when he beats someone you told him not to (Kuweit), you shoot him in the head , take his wallet, and call it self-defense.

An interesting article on the massive genocide America has inflicted on Iraq:
http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq17.html (UN Stats: 1,700,000 deaths due to economic sanctions)

I'm fucking sick to death of people insisting there was anything altruistic about the Iraqi war - they did it for the oil and to have a further military presence in the middle-east (besides Turkey and Israel).

Saddam's crimes against his own people we're irrelevant - America kept arming him (including with any WMDs he 'possessed') until the very day before he attacked Kuweit. After the worst of his crimes we're already over.

But then again, it's only a small part of your butcher's bill: East Timor, Palestine, Guatemala, El Salvador, Vietnam, Cambodia, Nicaragua, etc.

So I feel justified getting a good chuckle out September 11th. I mean, if America won't follow Geneva Conventions and International Law, why hold the 'terrorists' to a higher standard.

Many more unhappy returns.

 

Do you really value the lives of Arabs so little that you think it's worth killing them so you can go through college debt free? That it's in some way justified? Can you really be that self-involved.

Because it's not like your army's track record made a criminal war such as this a shock. It's no suprise their killing innocents.

Better them than people who are actually defending their homeland. They deserve to die as much as Nazi's did, at any rate.

 

What the hell are you talking about? I'm not avoiding anything except looking like a dumbass. I'd rather be called a "pullstring doll" then rant about made up facts and figures like every other person that bitches about "sanitised media"

 

Read a little background information on say... East Timor and maybe you'd understand the genocide comparison.

 

I did address this: The american army has a long and terrible history of genocide, violence, and illegal wars. Hence, joining such a group pretty much means participating in genocide, violence, and illegal wars. Hence why most people don't do it... I mean its no secret what they've done.

It's like joing al-Qaeda and saying you didn't know you'd be a terrorist.

Therefore justifying it by saying it pays for your college hardly places a high value on other people's lives.

 

Any major power's army in recorded history has a long and terrible history of genocide, violence and illegal wars. (as an aside - please provide me with an example of a legal war) To which government do you pay taxes that allows you to hold such moral high ground. All wars suck - Stop war - that is the answer and it is something that must be done in unity not by pointing fingers at each other and saying "Ha - Ha - my countries less evil than yours" When the armed forces of a state act - evil is done – that’s the bottom line.