10,000 Clergy members endorse evolution

Isnt that an anti-evolutionist instance of "plea bargaining", which ermasmus brought up?

 

It would be seriously funny but for one thing ~ they're serious!
ROFL

 

I don't think Russia had much of a western mindset. Remember that whole cold war fiasco? Many Americans believe it is an honor to pick up a gun and shoot living things, human and non. The people I know who went in the army did so because they wanted to kill. Some wanted to kill specifically "darkies," which I guess is anyone darker than Ricky Martin.

You haven't said anything showing evolution as unscientific. What you see as censorship is:
1. Not widespread, so don't kid yourself
2. A tad different from censorship.
Let me explain, and see if you can wrap your mind around this. People in general have problems with information. They get most of their information from crappy sources, and people have a LOT of misconceptions about stuff in general. Especially evolution. Creationism is not science. Evolution is. It's not a "party line," it's science. If you teach creationism, you are not teaching science. Likewise with intelligent design. There is NO science to support either of these. The people in charge realize this, and don't want the layman or the layman's kids to be taught this stuff under the guise of science, because there are enough problems with non-scientists and science already. It's not a "fire him, he'll undo evolution" thing. People have been trying to undo evolution since it came about as a theory, and of course some aspects of the original theory are gone, and as a result, we know the mechanisms of evolution much better now.

 

Evolutionist will agree that many very unlikely coincidences occured in the process the evolution. But will go... oh, well that doesn't prove it is an intelligence...

Yet "the likelihood that random accidents turned inanimate matter into living matter—I will address only the molecular biological aspects. Consider a calculation by the famous (atheist) scientist Sir Fred Hoyle. Hoyle understood that even the simplest living cells are extremely complex, containing many nucleic acids, enzymes, and molecules all joined together in a very precise sequence. He calculated the odds of each of 20 amino acids appearing in the correct sequence to form an enzyme as 1 chance in 1020. Since the simplest living cell requires 2,000 functioning enzymes, the odds against the amino acids appearing in the correct sequence for a living cell were equal to 1 in (1020) 2000—or 1 chance in 1040,000. This number is a 1 followed by 40,000 zeros. Because mathematicians normally regard a chance of 1 in 1050 as mathematical impossibility, Hoyle concluded that life could not have appeared by earthbound random processes, even if the whole universe consisted of prebiotic soup. His collaborator Chandra Wickramasinghe put it more dramatically: "The chances that life just occurred are about as unlikely as a typhoon blowing through a junkyard and constructing a Boeing 747.


To appreciate the size of 1050, consider that if you assume the Big Bang occurred 15 billion years ago, only 1018 seconds have occurred in all of time. The number of atoms in the known universe is estimated to be only 1080. Physicist Paul Davies has equated the odds of one chance in 1060 as equal to the odds against hitting a one-inch target with the random, unaimed shot of a rifle bullet from a distance of 20 billion light years. One chance in 1040,000 is far beyond mathematical possibility..." Dean Overman

Amit Goswami, a quantum physicist talks about this, "has been around in cosmology and astronomy under the guise of a principle called the "anthropic principle." That is, the idea has been growing among astronomers—cosmologists anyway—that the universe has a purpose. It is so fine-tuned, there are so many coincidences, that it seems very likely that the universe is doing something purposive"


So we have no choice but to conclude it is no random, that there is actually something smarter then the human brain, there is an intelligence involved in all this, But it doesn't imply that the bible is literal true or the intelligence designer is seperate from its creation or that the intelligence has to do with one religion or another...


Actually we get further into the truth as we look as quantum mechanics.

Amit Goswami, a quantum physicist writes,

" Behind our individuality, consciousness is one. We choose actual events, not from our ordinary ego individuality, but from a non-ordinary state of consciousness where you and I, Wigner´s friend and Wigner are all one. The one consciousness, out of its total freedom sometimes chooses green for Wigner, sometimes for Wigner´s friend. In a large number of events, Wigner and Wigner´s friend both get green more or less equal number of times.

You and I are one, according to quantum physics resonating well with Jesus´ statement, “My father and I are one.” And if you interpret this statement to mean that Jesus is only talking about himself, only he is the “son of the father” and therefore identical to Him, then think again. Jesus tells repeatedly to his listeners that they all are children of God; they just have to realize it:

If you know yourselves
then you will be known
and you will know that
you are the sons of the Living Father.
(Thomas: 13)
​

You and I are one; consciousness is non-local. The same conclusion is reached from another angle. In quantum physics, if two objects interact in some way, they become “correlated” meaning that they are capable of mutual influence even at a distance and without exchanging signals. If one observer collapses the possibility wave of one partner, the correlated partner´s possibility wave collapses in the same actuality suggesting that quantum collapse is non-local and the agent of collapse, consciousness, is also non-local. Restated in people terms, if consciousness can collapse waves of possibility in your brain and in my brain simultaneously when we are correlated, our consciousness must be non-local and unitive. The kingdom of God is not only immanent here on earth, but also transcends the immanent reality. Consciousness, God or His kingdom, is both “inside all this and outside all this,” to quote the Hindu Upanishads.

What is Jesus‘ view on these subjects? Let´s take Jesus´ well-known statement: The kingdom of God is everywhere, but people don´t see it. So Jesus certainly knew about God being immanent in the world. Is he siding with an animistic worldview then? Let´s not be hasty. Here is another famous quotation from Jesus:

If those who lead you say to you
“See, the kingdom is in heaven,”
then the birds of heaven will precede you.
If they say to you: “It is in the sea,”
then the fish will precede you.
The Kingdom of God does not come visibly,
nor will the people say,
“Here it is,” or “There it is,”
because the Kingdom of God,
is within you.
(Luke 117: 20-21)
​

And again in the Gospel of Thomas, Jesus says:

But the Kingdom is within you
and it is without you.
(Thomas: 13)"​

​

​

Goswami explains how quantum mechanics proves one consciousness. That all of it is consciousness that is ONE!​

​

Beyond a shadow of a doubt.​

​

​

Yet all the sceince stuff, is nothing without the TRUE SCIENCE, the SCIENCE of THE INNER JOURNEY. ​

​

THE MYSTICAL SCIENCE of going within and exploring yourself, using meditation, psychedelics, chanting, prayers whatever, what have you.​

​

​

I am IN, I am a beginner in knowing this one consciousness... I speak from this knowledge, from this heart, from this one love.​

​

The demise of material realism, the demise of chance is at hand. Stop clinging to your meaningless hellish perceptions of total randomness and supremity of matter in a universe FILLED with purpose and divinity​

​

​

 

Nice insult post Ganjaprince.
At least you took the time to paste the right idea.
The funny thing about EvoFundies is that they will pull that lame 'logical fallacy' type of argument gimmick and insist you are arguing from 'incredulity'.
That is not true.
Its arguing probability.
The Probability of a bowl of soup being hit by lightening and morphing into dinosaurs, bugs, humans and eagles is scientifically speaking 'Nil'.
Evolutionists readily admit this is the case as well as Scientists so its not a secret.

For this reason alone (Improbability) Ive always said that - I would most definately conclude there was an Intelligent Designer ESPECIALLY IF I WAS AN EVOLUTIONIST!

 

fun·da·men·tal·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (fnd-mntl-zm)
n.
A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

Just so you know what we mean when we say fundies...


And for all you that throw around the word science

sci·ence ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sns)
n.

The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.
Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
Knowledge, especially that gained through experience


Uh... ID fits into this, controversial quantum mechanics understanding fit into this... It is just as much science as strict evolutionary thinking that says it is all random chance.

And science as defined as Knowledge, especially that gained through experience...

Well mysticism fits into that. It is inner exploration through meditation or psychedelic or chanting or mystica teaching or gurus or whatever... that reveals an experience of the "divine" the oneness, the one consciousness. in which the seperate self is dissolved... The experience of unity is so real and amazing.. This expierence gained through SCIENCE

Science defined as such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

The obeject inquiry is oneself by inner iquiry and study through different techiniques

THe experience of the one consciousness is SO POWERFUL, that the material world is seen as a mirage and dream... and even if the mystic gets totaly lost within it, the mystic will usually stay true to his/her experience knowing the unity to be the REAL, and the seperateness to be the illussion.

It just happens that this mystical experience found in may traditions IS backed up by quantum mechanics

And thus with all these combined sciences, VERY SCIENTIFCALLY VALID.

IT IS A FACT!

 

The chances you gave are for lightning striking the ocean and creating a cell. I don't think anyone anywhere has suggested that as a theory. Maybe jokingly. I don't profess to have all the answers. I do know that the universe does not require a designer. All that comes from is a feeling that we are special. We as a race, a species, or a planet, are chosen, which I think is faulty. I will not say that there is no designer, but there is no need for one.

It would have started with simple organic molecules, which are easy to create from inorganic materials in the conditions early earth would have had. From there, all you need to start evolution is something that is self-replicating. Once something starts replicating, it can make mistakes. Some bad, some good. Good ones replicate more, normal ones have a disadvantage, and bad ones die.

 

Jesus was always speaking of the Old Testament, and He always spoke of it as matter of fact, not a fable. In Matthew 24 Jesus speaks of Noah and the flood, at no time did he ever suggest this was a made up story. Jesus believed in the literal Bible, and as Christians we should to. When one takes it upon himself to say what is true and what is false in the Bible, then in all honesty, what one believes about the Bible has little to do with the truth, but rather what you decide is true. The Bible is either the biggest lie ever concevied by men, or it is fully God's truth revealed to the world. The Bible is not a Book to play games with. We donot follow the Bible by spinning the bottle and seeing what verse or chapter it points to. The Bible is not a Book of chance, rather it is a Book of truth, and all of it can be believed. If even one chapter can be proven wrong in the Scriptures, why would anyone believe in the remission of sin. God created the universe, but He can't get His Book right. Jesus believe in the Old Testament, and all Christians should believe it as well.

 

Did jesus specifically say it was literal?

That's true anyways. You decide the entire bible is true. That doesn't mean it has little to do with the truth, it has a lot. Few people spend there lives searching for lies. Maybe Karl Rove does that, but not many others. Believing something is the same as deciding it's true.

"God created the universe" comes ONLY from the bible. If the bible is wrong, why would that be right?

 

Interesting FreakerSoup. Take the DMT molecule in my sig ~ when it connects with the neuronal structure within the pineal gland..... hello "psychedelia"!! Similarly, the body totally relies upon chemical molecular cascades for sustenance and homoeostatic balances (hormones, enzymes, salts).
Reading backwards from such occurrences, one could conjecture that single-cell structures, living at the molecular level, could (emphasis could) have acquired that which was necessary to self-replicate or advance simply by contact with an appropriate molecule, a thereby, through contact with more molecules of differing chemicals with other various attributes (such as DMT in all it's guises), consciousness evolves.
But for me, it always comes back to "how did the quanta that make the atoms that make the molecules that construct the matter that assembles as universe that encapsulates and encompasses life, originate?" Or even "why"????

 

and yet...it did happen. isnt that where ID fails? It makes a huge claim with absolutely no evidence or even explanation for how the prcoess actually works. How can you look back on something and say the chances of it happening are far too small, when there is no way to prove it didnt happen by chance?

 

I've always been able to picture God going "BAM!" *like Emreled* whilist causing the big bang

 

So where was god sitting when he went BAM, and how did he and his sit come about?
There must be some way, otherwise there's no way.

 

May I please have your scriptural evidence for this, Mr. Campbell? It seems that Christ believed the principle of the Law mattered more than the Letter, and neither one was as important as the well-being of His people.

Matthew 12: Lord of the Sabbath
1At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. His disciples were hungry and began to pick some heads of grain and eat them. 2When the Pharisees saw this, they said to him, "Look! Your disciples are doing what is unlawful on the Sabbath." 3He answered, "Haven't you read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4He entered the house of God, and he and his companions ate the consecrated bread—which was not lawful for them to do, but only for the priests. 5Or haven't you read in the Law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple desecrate the day and yet are innocent? 6I tell you that one[a] greater than the temple is here. 7If you had known what these words mean, 'I desire mercy, not sacrifice,'[b] you would not have condemned the innocent. 8For the Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath."

Please understand that just because David did this, this event did not un-make the Law, either. Consecrated bread at the temple was, is, and will be for the priests, as dictated by G-d's Own Law. But somehow, Jesus makes their actions seem permissible - Even justified. Why is that...?

Could it be that just as the Sabbath was made for the man (rather than man being made for the Sabbath), could His Holy Word as Written by Inspired (but still fallible) Human Hands exist for the benefit of those humans alone? Unless we're suggesting that G-d would create a Divinely Inspired work had He never created humans, for His Sole reading pleasure throughout eternity?

Let's continue!

9Going on from that place, he went into their synagogue, 10and a man with a shriveled hand was there. Looking for a reason to accuse Jesus, they asked him, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"
11He said to them, "If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? 12How much more valuable is a man than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13Then he said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." So he stretched it out and it was completely restored, just as sound as the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and plotted how they might kill Jesus.

Take a look at verse 11. This, too, is actually technically *against the Law* (as it is performing work) even though practically no one would ever accept such a wasteful loss of life and resources...

And of course, just about everyone knows of the story where He stops the angry mob from stoning the harlot - In defiance of G-d's original decrees as laid forth in Leviticus.

This isn't a matter of truth - It's a matter of consistency. Even the some of the Infallible Literal Word churches are starting to realize the necessity of viewing some of the verses as a reflection of principle rather than a literal command. But then, how do they know where to draw the line if they should draw it at all...?

Even many of the Jewish people believe the Torah is a conglomeration of events and circumstances reflected in what is more of the story of the Jews, in epic poetry form, with some artistic license applied. Hans Kuntz in his book Judaeism: Yesterday, Today, and Tomorrow cites a study into the detailed history of the Jews, and there's some evidence that the Fathers of the Nation were not only Abraham, Israel, and David. Their recorded experiences are more likely events that happened to a string of leaders over time, and were later simplified by unifying the subjects as symbols of our lineage, lest we allow those stories to die due to sheer complexity. The point, however, is preserved.

I'm just asking you to consider that the truth preserved within the Book is of a spiritual nature, therefore the world of emotions is what it appeals to. In being saved by realizing that His Way is The Way by letting go of the self to put others first, we accept the Holy Spirit, which fills G-d's entire creation and is accessible by every human being, that *ALL* might have a chance to attain salvation.

That's the only Truth that matters.... They can prove for sure that man and monkeys are one and the same, and it won't matter to me, because Truth of the Spirit is what preserves us (that means the spirit - or intended design - of the Scriptures, as well).

I tremble to think what this forum will be like when that happens...LOL!

 

Where ever he wanted to he's God right?

 

I said Russia had a western mind set because they like the west believed in the doctrine of MAD. The new Islamics will not be detered from their war like ways by that doctrine. For it will be an honor to die for the cause of Allah, as long as America, (the Great Satan), according to the Islamics, is destroyed first. This kind of thinking is what we see in the Middle East today.

This is a reduced clip from a post by Ken Hoffman.

WHEN SOMEONE TELLS ME "ID IS NOT SCIENCE BECAUSE IT STARTS WITH A CONCLUSION" I KNOW THEY DO NOT KNOW SCIENCE. BEHOLD!!! THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD!!

The scientific method has four steps

1. Observation and description of a phenomenon or group of phenomena.

2. Formulation of an hypothesis to explain the phenomena.

3. Use of the hypothesis to predict the existence of other phenomena.

4. Performance of experimental tests of the predictions by several independent experimenters and properly performed experiments.

ID is applying scientific processes to see if there is evidence that the Earth we know is the result of a design, VS a combination of random coincidences that make the Power-ball Odds look like a sure bet.

ID taught right should be in the schools, because it creates dialog and critical thinking, and it does not promote a single religion, it only asks, is Random Chance the only way we could be where we are.

Black Holes, String Theory, Plate Tectonics were all for the first generation of their work considered "crackpot" ideas and "NOT REAL SCIENCE" Since we at this point do not have a single shred of evidence that there is no God or guiding intelligence, if science assumes that from the start, it may never find its truth, because maybe there is a God ect.

SCIENCE CAN ONLY WORK WHEN IT IS OPEN TO ALL HYPOTHESIS.

Censorship is not wide spread. If that were true, ID would be taught in most high schools across this nation. Censorship, is alive and well here in America.

 

Nice Asserting Colours!

ID does give an explanation: Intelligent Design.
That explanation would account for many of the things we see. Example: Error Checking Mechanisms we can observe all the time.

ID most certainly does have evidence. Its actually evidence that leads to ID in the first place.
For example: Every example of complex working information we find (in whch we CAN observe the cause) is in fact, Intelllegent Design.
So
We have no choice from a 'scientific point of view' to conclude that ID is 'scientifcally speaking - the best and most likely explanation for the Cell (so far)'.

It has nothign to do with a 'Huge Claim'.
Its what we are left to conclude whether we like it or not - its what science tells us.

An example of a 'Huge Claim' would be if you suppose that lightning hit some soup - which turned into everything on the planet.
BILLIONS OF TIMES EVEN!
Then you were asked why you just said: "And yet it did happen" but not only have no reason to believe this
but
From a Scientific point of view its mathematically impossible AND if you were to look for examples of complex working ordered information (in which you CAN know the cause) you would not find ANY where random unguided forces caused it.
So now you are making an assertion which flies against scientific enlightenment.

And ultimately that IS what Evolutionism does and that the very reason its deemed 'shitty'.
Its not only 'unscientific' but its ANTIscientific.

The only reason people here dont know that is because they have believed things they were told.
They actually believe that 'Scientists' can 'Recreate' Abiogenesis in labs.... (which by the way is demonstrating I.D. iin case anyone want to think about taht for a second)

People actually believe that Evolutionism means something else.
Maybe that is the real issue here.
The public does not know what they 'think they are accepting' and so when they are told Natural Selection is Evolutionism they think:
"Well.. hang on.. there IS Natural SelectionEvolutionism.. so how can 'Fundies' deny it.. they must be stupid?"

Never even realising that Natural Selection not only has nothing to do with adding genetic information but is in fact SELECTING FROM and is about all the evidence you need to demonstrate we START with more and DESCEND and not the other way around.

btw.. Probability is as much a part as anything. If you have built millions of hours of lab tests of observations on Mutations (for example).
You find that for every 999.9 BAD mutations you do find .1 GOOD Mutations then (from a scientific point of view) can say that Mutations are 'not likely' to Evolve anything but are likely to DEvolve organisms over enough time.

'Could' inorganic Soup 'mate' with a lightning bolt and then morph into billions of birds, plants, people, bears, brontaurus billions of times over?
Sure.. and I can turn into a Pink Unicorn tomorrow too.

..and yet, it happened lol!

 

Well first of all I am not here to perpetuate hate, and fear is not a bad thing if it makes one aware of danger. And it is true know one knows the day or the hour of Christ return, yet the Bible gives an abundance of evidence to let us know when his return is near. God did not put these prophecies in Scripture so we could ignore them. And in Revelation 1:3 it tells us "Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written there in:"
And I really don't need to check out Evolution, for the Bible clearly tells us how we got here. And I donot believe the Bible is a Book filled with made up stories, so I have confidence in what is written. And since I believe the stories are literal, and I believe the prophecies are literal, then are future can be found in those prophecies as well. My arguement with Evolution has more to do with mans appearence from lower life forms, than changes that have come about from diet or climate.
The fact is,the prophecies in the Bible tell of a time of terror that will come on the world shortly after the Jews return to Israel. These prophecies are detailed, and I'm doing all I can to make people understand, that things here on Earth are about to change, and not for the better. The only hope for mankind will not be found in a belief in Evolution, but only by a belief in Jesus Christ. Just before the full day of terror comes on the earth, Jesus Christ will send a rescue mission of Angles to remove His people. Those left behind, will be living in a world ruled by devils and demons. God will put an end to this, but it will come seven years later. According to the Bible, the focus of world attention, will be over the fate of Jerusalem. The good news, is that Jesus is coming again. And the prophecies of the Bible declare it, and Christians should be warning all, who will listen.

 

That is because you are lost in the dream... and you think it has substance, you forget you are BOTH THE DESIGNER AND THE DESIGN, YOU ARE IT. You think you are a body and a mind and a thinking processes and emotions and thoughts... that can think all these things. And think it is random chance, meaningless, and not understand the one consciousness.

That is alright. Part of waking up is getting lost in the dream.

Continue to think you destructive wrong and evil thoughts that create confusion in yourself and others

All I'm saying is that behind all that crap... That is horrible beautiful

IS YOU THAT IS ME

And WE SEE
OURSELF.

SHINING EVERYWHERE

"Limitless undying love that shines around me like a million eyes" - John Lennon

I see that part of you that KNOW ME and LOVES ME. Science just happens to back this up through quantum mechanics and cosmic coincidences, big deal... that is a gift yes, because it helps remove the doubts in some.

 

There are so many different levels of evolution you have to consider. I've seen evolution with my own eyes. You can even force evolution in a lab. All you need is an organism with a very short generation time so that in a resonable span of experimental time you can observe tens of thousands of generations and hence very obvious "evolutionary" changes. We commonly use bacteria (E. coli) for this experiment. In a culture of millions of bacterial cells there is inherent random genetic variability. If you add an environmental effector (antibiotic for example) the majority of the cells will die but the few that have random mutations that allow them resistance to the antibiotic will propagate until you have an entire population that "evolved" to be antibiotic resistant. In that sence evolution does indeed exist.


However, to consider gross differences in organisms as arising by merely evolutionary means is a whole different story (every organism evolved directly from a common single-celled organism for example). One can either take the bible very literally and believe that God did create a multitude of organisms in the beginning, after which they were exposed to some degree of evolution throughout billions of years and have slowly changed (evolved) into the organisms we have today. Or one can take the bible slightly more figuratively and assume that the time span mentioned in the bible pertaining to creation actually does span evolutionary history and that the driving force behind "evolution" was/is God, and God is still at work shaping our living existence. I tend to think that the "days" mentioned in Genesis are to be taken as figurative or symbolic and actually encompass our humanly envisioned idea of "evolution".