We've covered School shootings. Now lets tackle Chicago.

We were using some other tool from census.gov or something like that (I don't have the link memorized) but it didn't show the median income by race. Excellent point about the lowest median income! I was just saying how it's important to recognize that African American poverty isn't the same thing as poverty of other races because they face certain discrimination.

 

Not all discrimination is bad.

 

If I am hiring people and I have a choice between two people.

One is black, one is white.

The black person is ever so slightly MORE qualified than the white person.

I might still hire the white person.

Because the black person is a liability. If I ever need to fire them, no matter the reason, they can sue me for racial discrimination.

Its another example of black people being their own worst enemy and another example of the liberal policies hurting the black population

 

You just don’t understand, many blacks (and rightfully so) think of welfare as reparations, and as for children we can’t afford there’s strength in numbers.

Besides do you blame us for exploiting a loophole in the system which benefits women who have multiple births, notably Aid to Families with Dependent Children (AFDC) which was changed to Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) back in 1996

Don't like it too bad

 

I would think of reparations as being icing on the cake. A little extra money to sock away or have fun with at the end of the month. Not as enabling to live in perpetual poverty but with free food. If welfare is reparations, then by capitalizing on it youre only shooting yourself in the foot.

 

America to function properly needs a permanent underclass

 

Alright. Open them legs back up Shaniqua.

 

This has already been covered many times in many gun threads so I’m really not sure why the ‘now lets tackle’ comment was made since the subject of the extraordinarily high gun related crime rates in some US cities has been tackled already in hundreds of gun threads.

And the arguments are the same the gun lobby falls back on irrational slogans mainly based on bogus Social Darwinists (and even racist) ideas and dismisses anything else however rational or sensible as some kind of ‘liberal’ conspiracy to bring down America.

I think some ill-informed people actually fall for the Social Darwinist spiel but I also suspect others in the gun lobby push it for quite cynical reasons. Some for money other for politics

It’s about deflecting the issue from ease of access to guns to the idea that some economic classes or ethnic groups are to blame for high levels of violence.

I mean fear and paranoia sells guns and the politics of division.

If someone is taught to believe that certain people in their society are inherently and irredeemably violent, that nothing can be done to reverse that, that no social or economic policy will help, then the only ‘rational’ way to act is to be well armed against ‘their’ inevitable attack.

And Ka-ching goes the cash register down the local gun shop (probably more like a ping these days)

Then add to that an irrational feeling that people are 'out to get you' that your grouping is under attack from ‘do gooders’, social justice warriors and liberals that don’t now the ‘reality’ and want to take away the only protection they have against the violent evil hordes, you add that element of fear and you get them mindlessly going to vote for anybody who will protect ‘their rights’ however bad that may be for their and their societies future.

What gets to me is that after all this time and the gun lobbyist’s obvious inability to build a coherent (let alone rational) argument, that they haven’t realised they are just being used.

 

Except Chicago is one if the most restrictive gun laws in the country. Yet even so, the most poverty stricken uneducated class has plenty of access to them and is committing the majority of crimes with them.

So the Let's Tackle part, is relevant. More restrictions on guns isn't doing a damn thing to help Chicago. Throwing money into the inner cities isn't doing a damn thing to help, just like one of the first posters stated and the statistics seem to support.

So far the only thing that I should be saying to myself is, if anyone I come across is poor they are more likely going to be a likely crime perpretrator. No matter what race they are. During the commission if a crime I won't have the time to ask them if they came from a broken family as the data also suggest.

That's what the data proposed in this thread shows thus far. Nobody has provided any data to suggest otherwise.

I think I can pick them out when I see them.

 

Seems obvious in most instances indeed. Which makes it even more ironic when they put all the people who want improved but still reasonable gun control away as leftist tools (esp. hilarious with the addition: brainwashed by the Democrat party). I guess they really got nothing of substance. Unfortunate.
And hey, in those people's defense: I'm not saying there aren't some people who are and sound like leftist tools (same with there actually being irrational gun nuts who definitely should be subject to restrictions), but maybe they get far too much attention. Its the same error we see in the media all the time: extremes and extremist stances get disproportionate attention compared to the reasonable or for common ground looking (but less spectacular/aggravating) viewpoints and people.
It seems when others take notice of it, while lacking other arguments of substance to criticize their 'opponents' on a certain topic (like gun control) they tend to focus on this overly heard (but tiny minority of) extremes and project it on 'the other side' as a whole.
While actually when we're all agreeing there's too much unneccesary gun violence and accidents there is no other side. Except if one is actually such an extreme person themselves perhaps

 

Some of the guns recovered in Chicago come from Indiana. About 20% according to NBC. The rest come from other areas of Illinois it looks like. Must be either legal or straw purchases because as has been mentioned the gun laws there are stringent. Here is a link to their gun laws overview from NRA-ILA NRA-ILA | Illinois Gun Laws

Most Guns in Chicago Crimes Come From Out of State: Report

 

As I say nothing of substance and no rational argument.

It’s all rather sad and pitiful

 

And Indiana and Wisconsin don't. so it's a simple matter to drive across the state line and buy the guns. And a strong plurality of the school crimes and other mass shootings are not being committed by racial minorities or Chicagoans.
Chicago toughest on gun control? A claim shot full of holes
FACT CHECK: Is Chicago Proof That Gun Laws Don't Work?
“Fact Check: Is Chicago Proof That Gun Laws Don’t Work?” – What is the name of this site?
Trump cites Chicago to say gun control laws don't work. Researchers disagree.
No, Chicago Isn’t Proof That Gun Regulation Doesn’t Work

 

I said one of, not the toughest. And as your links pointed to California as the toughest, I'm happy to look at California for population demographics and crime and guns there if you'd like. What the crimes are and who is committing them.

And I will buy the notion that they simply go across state lines to buy. So now we can take gun control out of the equation since its been defeated by simply buying them elsewhere illegally. That gets us back to who is committing those crimes with those guns they would in fact be illegally owning at that point.

It would seem by the evidence presented by the posters, that its going to be a poor population with a broken family structure. The guns are simply going to be a byproduct of easy illegal ownership. Guns are going to be a component, no matter what the gun control laws in place are.

 

All covered already - the gun lobby replies seem to be getting even more desperate and shrill

 

Statistically, tough gun laws seem to be associated with lower gun violence. The States With The Most Gun Laws See The Fewest Gun-Related Deaths
It's easier to control that than tackle issues like poverty and family structure. We might look deeper to sin as the root cause, but I think it would be unproductive to focus on that as the primary strategy.

 

As I said, I'm perfectly willing to take guns out of the equation if it will help you wrap your head around the topic of how do we tackle a place like Chicago. Its a given they are using guns to commit the crimes. Legal or illegal doesn't seem to factor into the end results.

And it is too bad that we can't tackle the fact that its poverty and broken family's. As has been pointed out, we have been throwing money at it for decades. Yet more seem to be broke now and I don't really know if the culture of broken family's is any better.

Is it really sin? I mean when someone decides that killing a person is what they are going to do. Do you think they care if its a sin or not? Is sin in Chicago by a poor uneducated person different from a kid that shoots up a school?

 

My point is that the problems you mention are complex and deeply-rooted. Bringing them up as an alternative to gun control is simply a way of changing the subject from measures that might have some positive effect to more intractable ones that probably wont, at least in the short run. "Throwing money" at problems is rarely effective, unless the money is spent effectively. Particularly when Republicans are in power, it's unlikely that anything constructive will happen re those broader issues, because they're only interested in throwing money at billionaires and using the leftovers to buy off the base. In my state, Oklahoma, the legislature was gripped by tax cut fever until the money ran out, and now is cutting back on schools, teachers, mental health, etc. They still show concern for the unborn, but after that the kids are on their own.

As for sin, I brought it up not to engage in a theological discussion but to illustrate that the roots of human misconduct go long and deep and are not amenable to quick solutions. Yes, I do believe that immorality is involved in our problems, and not just that of the perpetrator. I'll leave it to God to decide whether a funny looking kid from a broken home in a culture saturated with violence and mean-spiritedness is responsible when (s) he takes the lives of other human beings. But I think immorality is ultimately responsible. Humanity is a mess, but some are more messed up than others.

So what solutions would you propose for the breakdown of families in the United States or for poverty? The problems are huge but I think worth tackling. Some gazillionaires like Gates have put their tax breaks to positive use. Maybe others could be persuaded to do the same. Or maybe the Republicans in Congress or the state legislatures might think of something, other than the use of the intractable nature of the problems to throw up their hands and concentrate on helping out rich folks. I believe in miracles.

 

Trump said "black peoples lives are hell. We're gonna' do something about that." You see--nothing can be done with the millions and millions feeling just like the Machinest. Imagine how many qualified blacks do not get the jobs they are seeking because of the "attitude."