To vaccinate or not to vaccinate???

I'll be happy to answer your questions. Whether or not vaccines are 100% effective, and what accounts for declines in measles mortality is apart from the fundamental question of

"DOES GETTING A VACCINATION MAKE YOU LESS LIKELY TO GET THE DISEASE THE VACCINE IS INTENDED TO PREVENT?"

YES OR NO?


If instead, you would like to answer the question

"DOES GETTING A MEASLES VACCINATION MAKE YOU LESS LIKELY TO GET THE MEASLES?"

YES OR NO?

I'll accept that too.

 

No, you would no be happy to answer my questions. As proof of that, I have your failure to do so. Vaccines contain toxins which have adverse effects on humans. This is documented. So, what we have here is a question of whether or not it is wise to put shit in our bodies to prevent something that was on the decline anyway. Below is a link which provide graphs that show the decline of diptheria, scarlet fever, etc. even without vaccines.

Now, what do you imagine was the cause of the decades-long decline in the mortality of measles?

http://childhealthsafety.wordpress.com/graphs/

 

I have company. We'll continue later.

 

Ok, if you would like to ask the question "DO VACCINES ALONE ACCOUNT FOR A DECLINE IN MORTALITY FROM MEASLES INFECTIONS?"

I will answer that question with an unequivocal "NO". "NO, VACCINES ALONE DO NOT ACCOUNT FOR A DECLINE IN MORTALITY FROM MEALES INFECTIONS".

I have no reason to doubt that the figures showing a decline in measles mortality, which begins long before the introduction of the measles vaccine, are inaccurate. So if this data is accurate, it is clear that something other than vaccines alone accounts for the decline in measles mortality.

I'll also answer this specific question:

I can imagine a lot of things. The fact that there was a pre-vaccine decline in measles mortality does not, however, point to any one cause.

The document you quoted in an earlier post

and as you suggest in this post

Are all plausible contributing factors to the the decline in mortality rates. If water, food, and other things in your environment aren't clean and you come into contact with them, you can get sick.

This in itself does not prove that they were contributing factors, were the only factors, or if they were factors, how much they contributed.

Other things that might account for the decline might include the ability to take time off and stay in bed and better medical care, especially improved hospitalization care and access to hospitalization. There could be other factors as well, and one can only speculate on the causes based on the data in the graph.

There! I've answered your question. Now answer mine:

"DOES GETTING A MEASLES VACCINATION MAKE YOU LESS LIKELY TO GET THE MEASLES?"

YES OR NO?

 

glad you brought that up, because it kind of goes with the whole point i was making, how do you know that those spikes would not have been much bigger without vaccines, after all it was on such a decline that it should have been gone by then by your logic.

 

Folks, it's time to stop responding to storch. Nothing you can say or evidence you produce will change him. The best thing that could happen to him is to suddenly wake up in 18185 London, East End, and see what life was like before modern medicine and the scientific method of working out prevention for disease.

 

I don't think that I can persuade Storch. Maybe I can persuade people who might read this thread that Storch and people like him are wrong, and that they are putting themselves, their children, and others who can't vaccinate at risk by not vaccinating.

 

Actually, the onus is on you to show that the spikes would have been much bigger without vaccines.

 

If you want to put toxins in your children's bodies, that's fine. You have an emotional investment in the idea that it's all good since it's a done deal.
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I tried to find a study by the cdc or any government agency that would show whether vaccinated children are healthier than unvaccinated children. Guess what? There isn’t one. And what do you think the cdc said when asked why they don’t conduct such a study? They said it would be unethical to do such a study. Can you believe that? It would seem that the ethical thing to do is to conduct a comparison study. That would make the case a slam-dunk for one side or the other. Right? Right. But they don’t want to do that. Hmmm . . .

When the CDC’s Dr. Boyle was asked by Rep. Bill Posey whether or not the CDC has done a study comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated children yet, she replied that they have never studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated. Hmmm . . .
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From Health Impact:

JAMA Pediatrics published a new study earlier this year looking at vaccination rates. The results of that study made headlines throughout the “mainstream” media outlets at the time, but none of them had headlines like ours. Yet, ours is probably the most factual headline representing the true facts of what this study found.

The objective of the study was to examine patterns and trends of undervaccination in children aged 2 to 24 months and to compare health care utilization rates between undervaccinated and age-appropriately vaccinated children.

Results:

Children who were undervaccinated because of parental choice had significantly lower utilization rates of the ED (emergency department visits) and outpatient settings—both overall and for specific acute illnesses—than children who were vaccinated on time.

So the author’s conclusions and those they hired to write the press release on the study reported this, right? Wrong. Here is what the abstract states as the conclusion of the study:

Conclusions: Undervaccination appears to be an increasing trend. Undervaccinated children appear to have different health care utilization patterns compared with age-appropriately vaccinated children.
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Do you get the impression that the pro-vaccine constituency are somewhat deceptive concerning the effects of vaccines on your kids? Boy I know I sure do.

http://healthimpactnews.com/2013/jama-study-kids-with-fewer-vaccines-have-fewer-doctor-and-emergency-room-visits/

 

Yes and he is most likely to have BAD SIDE AFFECTS later in life from the garbage in the vaccine!!!! (Auto immune diseases,etc)

NOT VACCINATING IS A GOOD THING....... Dont compromise thier immune systems!!!!!

 

if you think i need to prove something then everything i said went over your head. Dosnt surprise me but i didnt think you could prove to be even more stupid than i thought you were 2 days ago.

 

Now you're just expressing your anger at not being able to prove that the spikes would have been bigger without vaccinations. I'm not calling you stupid . . . just angry.

 

The death rate in vaccinated children against diphtheria, tetanus and whooping cough was twice as high as the non-vaccinated children (10.5% versus 4.7%).
Kristensen I, Aaby P, Jensen H. Routine vaccinations and child survival: follow up study in Guinea-Bissau, West Africa. British Medical Journal. 2000;321:1435-1441
A German study released in September 2011 of 8,000 non-vaccinated children, newborn to 19 years, show vaccinated children have at least 2 to 50 times more diseases and disorders than non-vaccinated children.

http://journal.livingfood.us/2011/10/09/new-study-vaccinated-children-have-2-to-5-times-more-diseases-and-disorders-than-unvaccinated-children/

The Nederlandse Vereniging Kritisch Prikken (Dutch Association for Conscientious Vaccination, The Netherlands) compared the health of vaccinated and non-vaccinated children using various categories (sickly, eczema, asthma/chronic lung disease, allergies, aggressive behavior, sleeping difficulty, ear infections, inflammation of the throat, convulsions/collapse, need for antibiotics) and in every category the non-vaccinated children’s parents reported a fraction of the incidence of these events than those of vaccinated children.

In a governmental hearing Philip Incao, MD reported what many other MDs have stated:
“In my medical career I’ve treated vaccinated and unvaccinated children and the unvaccinated children are far healthier than the vaccinated ones.”

There’s more here:

http://www.vaxchoicevt.com/science/studies-comparing-vaccinated-to-unvaccinated-populations/

 

News Flash! Parents who distrust doctors and don't get their kids vaccinated don't got to see the doctor much!

News Flash! People who are dead don't go to the ED much either! By your standards, they are healthier...

 

Here's a link to the actual study
http://www.bmj.com/content/321/7274/1435

The following quote from the study is noteworthy

This study did however appear to find some vaccines producing higher rates of mortality.

The world health organization took note of the study and conducted at least four follow-up studies

Here's the results:

http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/committee/topics/dtp/statement112002/en/

Your links to the German study that you mention are broken.

 

Wow! You are getting desperate, aren't you? News flash: You just made that up. Why don't you produce the study that backs up those ridiculous claims you just made.
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From the JAMA Study:

Children who were undervaccinated because of parental choice had significantly lower utilization rates of the ED (emergency department visits) and outpatient settings—both overall and for specific acute illnesses—than children who were vaccinated on time.

 

A study that supports the "ridiculous" claim that dead people use the emergency department less frequently than living people?

 

Also, the WHO study is in reference to deaths from vaccinations. You know full well that I'm showing evidence that vaccinated children are more prone to a disease than the unvaccinated.

In a governmental hearing Philip Incao, MD reported what many other MDs have stated:

“In my medical career I’ve treated vaccinated and unvaccinated children and the unvaccinated children are far healthier than the vaccinated ones.”

So, are you telling yourself that he was referring to the unvaccinated children you say don't get taken in for doctor's visits?

 

Ezm8: "News Flash! People who are dead don't go to the ED much either! By your standards, they are healthier..."

This was your attempt to imply that the reason unvaccinated children don't go to the ED is because they're dead. You do hear yourself, right?

 

No. Here's the statement of the results of the WHO studies

Saying that children who have been vaccinated have "reduced mortality rates" means that they were less likely to die than were unvaccinated children.

The study in the British Medical Journal only referred to mortality rates. Follow up studies by the WHO also addressed mortality rates.

No, I'm telling myself that you've found one crazy guy who is on the anti-vaccine bandwagon.

It doesn't matter if the overwhelming majority of doctors and medical researchers strongly support vaccination, all you need is handful of freaks who are against it, and you conclude that vaccines are bad.