Support the Troops?

Freedom for everyone is a great idea...but I don't believe that's what we are accomplishing over there...
I believe our troops are of good heart, but they are still pawns.
They just do as they are told.
I don't support war, I don't support people dying, I don't support killing.
Fight wars, not war.

Plus, we only get one side of things.
Americans always think we are fighting for the "good side"...
We are just supporting the side that won the election...*from what I hear from my history teacher*
I am not so blindly patriotic...

 

yeah i know... :tongue:

Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man's original virtue. It is through disobedience and rebellion that progress has been made.
- Oscar Wilde

 

Yea, maybe if we all sit around and do nothing, freedom will spread itself. Yes, I do believe in freedom and democracy. It is not perfect but everyone deserves it.

How would you define "good side"? Of coarse depending on what side you are on that is the "good side". This doesn't mean that doing nothing is the answer and it rarely is.

Thousands of innocents were dying before we went into Iraq. The US is far from a pariah state. Quagmire in the mideast? You have to be joking here, I think the Mideast creates enough of their own problems. I will agree on the freedoms at home. We need to get this reined in and quick.

 

Mainly due to the sanctions proposed by the US and passed by the UN. Are fewer dying now? Are Iraqi lives better now? I don't remember "spreading democracy" as a reason for starting this war. Amazing how our motives change over time. How many US citizens would have supported starting a war for that purpose?

 

And thousands more have died since we went there. Things are far worse now.

If it's not a quagmire, how come we're still there 5 years already?
What have we accomplished??

You have to be joking if you think this war is winnable militarily alone.
Military "power" has it's limits. The Vietnam War taught us that. Obviously, you are too young to have learned that valuable lesson or rather shall I say, too naive...

Your're right on that one. And an idiotic American president running a dysfunctional government creates a much bigger mess.

Stupid voters get what they deserve.

 

They still had plenty of money to support their people. Hell the French and others continued to buy oil from them illegally anyway. Do some searching on the present state of Northern Iraq. They are prospering and growing. Having a dictator kill anyone who disagrees with the government is not the way to stop a cival war. I think they should split Iraq up and form three peaceful governments with their own power over their own land. As far as dying, it depends. There are a lot less Kurds being killed then there was before. Most of the killing going on is about who will take power when we leave and a fight between religous factions that has been going on for centuries. I personally don't want to see people not fighting only because they are killed as soon as they open their mouth.

It was one of the goals from the beginning. Not the reason but one of the goals. The reason was that the UN was allowing illegal oil sales to happen making their effect useless. Remember that Sadam could have stoped the war altogether if he would have allowed weapons inspectors in. He wanted people to think he was armed. He took a gamble and lost.

That is not why the war was fought. They didn't have weapons in the end but again all they needed to do was allow the inspectors in. How many US citizens support pulling out and giving Iraq to Iran? Not many that I talk to.

 

Have any proof of that?

The Kurds are barely represented in the new government. The killing has been going on for years, so that makes it alright. But Sadaam was executed for a crime that took place at least ten years before this war was started, and convicted during a trial that proved less that just and objective...that's justified also?

One of whose goals? Sadaam allowed the inspectors in, we removed them shortly before we started dropping bombs. Sadaam many times said they had no wmd. This story of his trying to pretend he had wmd doesn't cut the truth test. The inspectors were continually telling us they saw no evidence, at the same time Colin Powell was showing the world manufactured proof.

They let the inspectors in. And almost everyone I talk too does. And the polls also show the majority of Americans are for withdrawl.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/26/AR2007022600313.html

And why should our withdrawl lead to Iran taking over Iraq? It doesn't necessarily follow if the government that has been "democratically" elected there is as grand an accomplishment as the Bush government would like us to believe.

 

http://www.theotheriraq.com/press_CBS.html
http://www.un.org/apps/sg/offthecuff.asp?nid=789

That is because the kurds are running a seperate government of their own. Yea, the killing has been going on for years, no it doesn't make it right but shows that it was present before the US invasion and has little to do with our presence now. They are prepping for power when we run away. I think the Sadaam execution was well justified. I leave that up to the people who had to live under his rule.

It was one of the US goals for the invasion of Iraq to leave it with a demacratic government. Sadaam was only allowing inspectors into certain facilities. There were many places that they wanted to investigate but were turned away.

Do you really believe once the US leaves that no other power players will be stepping in? Iran will step in from the sidelines the same way they have done in Lebanon. It is in their best interest to unite the Shia in the region. See even if we stop acting in our countries interests another country will step up to remake it in their best interest.

I think I have heard Bush repeatedly from the start say that this would: not be an easy task and would require fortitude to accomplish. The government will only stand if we ensure it does. If not the fighting grows when we leave.

That poll has a sample size of a 100 people, not really enough to generalize the entire US population. The liberal polls showed Bush would be defeated as well.

 

FYI Skip,
many Eastern European countries still have a mandatory army service for EVERY boy the moment they turn 18. If they are so anti war (in general) why do they still train every male?

My point is, the war machine is being fed and it is not just Americas. Does this make every citizen over 18 in some of these Eastern European countries brain washed evil pigs? No.

Does that mean my brother (who was in Iraq) is anything like you described here? HELL NO. Trust me, generalizing about every single person who joins the army (or air force like my brother) won't get anything done, it will just piss people off I would say. Even those who may be against the war. Because it hits home with both sides, who happen to have FAMILY in the armed services. I am against the war but I resent you saying that about all troops with my brother in mind, who is a kind hearted man. Realize that your post is not a one size fits all description of troops. Nothing in life is so simple that one thread like this can explain everything. At least allow for different variables. Again, sorry, but its makes me angry that someone can see my brother like this when they do not even know him and he is NOTHING like your post. Just realize this, understand it.

 

you didn't address the second part of my post.

 

If you think the armed services is solely about killing then you haven't been. Every generation of my family since we have been in America has served this country(that would be 4 now). We are all much more the hired killers. I don't think it would even be possible to explain to someone like you. Some of us realize that the real world isn't utopian games. You are like the naive kid at school that never learns what really goes on just their own dreams. Meanwhile, there will be those willing to roll up their sleeves and do what has to be done. They are willing to do the dirty work not just sit back enjoy the benefits and bitch. Those are my heros. They don't do it for money, hell it doesn't pay that well. They do it for family and country because in the end that is what you can rely on. Everyone is so tied up in being cynical towards everything now days, I think it must be the product of not wanting for anything in life. Oh well, to each his own.

 

It is just as bad if you think about it. If people REALLY didn't want to feed the war machine their would be a back lash. There could be. But not really. why aren't these people fighting this if they are so against it? hmmmm? National pride (which is sometimes even stronger in Europe than here in the states). In other words, the majority are okay with it, otherwise, maybe things would change.

And again, the original post isn't a one size fits all description, just looking at my brother it is obvious thats the case. Nothing in life is that simple. You can disagree with the war when talking to people, but you will lose them when you call someones family member a killer or lost in life. My brother is not a killer, nothing like your post SO EXPLAIN THAT. while I won't agree with their choice to join, I won't call them a killer or claim they are lost in life. and if I did, would be expected to be abrubtly put in my place.

 

I don't support them, not one damn bit. I shed tears for the VICTIMS of the war machine, not the perpetrators.

 

Money? You could make more money working in a car wash or waiting tables. The average servicemember with a wife and 2 children lives right at the poverty line. The only redemption is benefits, if you can call them that.

Glory? I don't watch much television or read the newpapers, but I can tell you that there is no glory in this war nor was there in the previous three.

In Korea, there was more PTSD, torture, POWs, and negativity toward returning active duty and the first solid protests and hatred for servicemembers who only thought they were doing the right thing. But at least the VA took care of them.

Vietnam was a severely protracted and unjust war where people were ordered to do things that they should not have been ordered to do. If they refused they underwent courtsmartial or were summarily executed. Then they came home and their own country and their veterans support system shit on them.

Desert Shield/Desert Storm was such a righteous undertaking, we pushed the Iraqi guard out of Kuwait lightning fast with few casualties, with major support for the troops. But Bush Sr. left the door open to the atrocities committed today in the new war and the majority contracted "Gulf War Syndrome" and again their support system shit on them.

And now, the people returning from the lastest unjust war are missing arms, legs, eyes, are being treated like meat, like we treat our farm animals and our homeless people.

War is not an exact science, it never has been and never will be. War does not include atrocities, it IS an atrocity. But it is and always will be. I'm not a fatalist, I'm a realist. We are aggressive barbarians. Peel off the technology and the evolution and it's still there.

Skip, you've never worn a US uniform and you never will and that's fine. I'll never wear one again, wish I never had and I have to live with that. I normally agree with you on most points but on this you don't even have a point of reference on which to base these judgements. I know, you don't have to eat a turd to know it tasteslike shit but you're tearing down people, human beings, for doing what they believe to be right, what they are told is the right thing to do.

Have a little compassion, man. Will you scream to high hell when the Iraqis start treating their people like that? Oh wait, it's too late...

EDIT: I think the point I rambled past here is that there is no glory and no money in being a soldier. War is bad. But it isn't going anywhere anytime soon. And rob, the man on the battlefield isn't the perpetrator. He's the pawn. That's all any of us are. Pawns. You can't lie your way out of it. Have a job? Pay taxes? You support the war. Buy something? Pay sales tax? You support the war. Drive a car? Use gas? You support the war. Have a cousin in uniform in Baghdad? Love him? You support the war.

Hating another human being is just plain unproductive.

 

How the hell can this government expect to bring "freedom and democracy" to Iraq when this government can't even help it's own veterans?...

I am so mad at this dysfunctional government, those in power should all resign, for being such a bunch of nincompoops.



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3088315


Young Marine Dies of PTSD - And Neglect






Jonathan Schulze was a United States Marine.

He died earlier this month at the age of 25 -- not in Iraq, but back home, in Minnesota.

He died of wounds received during his seven-month tour of duty in Iraq, wounds different from the ones that earned Schulze two purple hearts. This young man died of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, of wounds to the soul and not the flesh. He died because the government that was there to send him far away to fight in 2004 wasn't there for him when he got home.

Schulze had a harrowing time in Iraq, spending time in the heated battles of Ramadi in April, 2004. While he was there, 35 Marines in his unit were killed, including 17 of them in just 48 hours of combat.

The young Marine was wounded twice in battle but returned home to rebuild his life and to cope with the things he had seen, things he had done and friends he had lost. But, by the time he was discharged from the Marines in late 2005, he was deeply troubled with images of combat and violence that he could not get out of his mind.

According to Minnesota press reports, Schulze went to the Veterans Administration (VA) center in Minneapolis on December 14, 2006, met with a psychiatrist and was told that he could only be admitted for treatment four months later, in March.

On January 11, 2007, accompanied by his parents, he went to the VA hospital in St. Cloud, Minnesota and told people at that VA facility that he was thinking of killing himself. They told Schulze that they could not admit him as a patient and sent him on his way.

The next day, January 12, Schulze called the VA, reiterating that he was feeling suicidal. He was told that he was number 26 on the waiting list.

A man who had risked his life in Iraq and done everything that was asked of him by the United States government, was told by that same government that his sacrifice would be repaid by being 26th on a list of Veterans similarly crying out for help.

"Jonathan wanted help so bad," said Marianne Schulze, Jonathan's stepmother. "At the end of the conversation, Jonathan got off the phone so distressed."

On January 16, Schulze called his family and told them that he was going to do it -- he was going to kill himself. His family called the local police, who raced to his house, kicked in his door and found him hanging from an electrical cord.

Attempts to resuscitate him were unsuccessful.

Having read about Schulze while on a trip to Minnesota, Senator Byron Dorgan (D-ND) brought the story to the floor of the Senate and read it into the record on Monday.

"The story is nearly unbelievable to me," said Dorgan in a speech on the Senate floor. "The newspaper description of the flag-draped coffin of this young marine who earned two Purple Hearts fighting for his country in Iraq contains a sad, sad story of a young marine who should have gotten medical help for serious psychological problems that were the result of his wartime experience."

The Marine's family says that he couldn't sleep, would have nightmares reliving the combat he had experienced and suffered from vivid flashbacks when awake.

“He was a delayed casualty of the Iraq war,” his father, Jim Schulze, a Vietnam Veteran, said of Jonathan.

Jonathan Schulze, who leaves behind his fianceé, a 6-month-old daughter and who had another baby on the way, was a machine gunner who wrote often to his parents about what he was experiencing in Iraq, the firefights, the bombings and dismembered bodies blown apart by Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs).

“I pray so much over here and ask God to keep me out of harm’s way and to make it back home alive and in one piece,” he wrote to his parents in 2004. “I bet I easily pray over a dozen times a day and I always pray while I am on patrol as I am terrified of getting hit by an IED aka a bomb. Our vehicle elements and Marines on patrols are getting hit hard by these bombs the Iraqis plant all over and hide on the ground.”

He survived all of that only to come home and find neglect, the results of an administration big on tax cuts for the wealthy, but not real strong on taking care of Veterans returning home from the war created by the George W. Bush and, until this month, left unchecked by the do-nothing Republican Congress.

As is often the case when things like this happen, the VA is citing privacy laws and won’t talk about the Schulze family’s account of what happened to Jonathan or issue any comment at all.

But Senator Dorgan says he's going to press for answers.

"I am going to ask the inspector general to investigate what happened in this case," said Dorgan on the Senate floor. "What happened that a young man who was a marine veteran with two Purple Hearts turns up at a VA center and says: I am thinking of committing suicide, can you help me, can you admit me, and he is told: No, the list is 26 long in front of you?"

"Are there others who show up at a VA center and say: I need help, only to be told no help is available? I hope that is not the case. It is the unbelievable cost of war."

You can read more from Bob at BobGeiger.com.

 

I don't care whether you are impressed or not. Who are you anyway? What have you done for your country? Like I said before there is never a lack of uninvolved people bitching (even though they sure suck up the benefits). The truth is that without a military our country wouldn't even be here. There are few people in the world willing to die for you. For you to turn around and disrespect them to me is unimaginable. Once again though the real world goes on and you guys bitch and bitch. Maybe one day everyone in the world will share equally and no one will want power and your utopia will come to be. Until then, I will always support the Men and Women in uniform everyday out here in the real world.