Support the Troops?

Agreed. And perhaps, just as you did, I was bringing parts of another thread here. Thinking about it, it may have been a thread about spitting on troops returning from VietNam (something that is to this day unsubstantiated) and it degenerated into real ugliness.

You also have my apologies.
Edit: Apologies to all brothers and sisters whom I may have offended.

 

awwwww you boys are so sweet.....

 

Actually, Skip, from my understanding of what I've seen, even in mainstream media, this is actually a very unpopular war, and is becoming moreso every day. Many people are afraid to speak up because they are intimidated by the illegal spying and other civil rights violations that have been out of control. but have heart, the tide is turning.

I posed the question of why should we discuss peacefully a war of such violence that is costing thousands of lives when I brought my son around to the new anti-war crisis center up the street from me. I can clearly see your frustration and anger, and the senseless deaths pain me, too.

the answers that come to mind for me is that peace is what we desire. can we achieve peace through violence and anger? can countering violence with more violence, even violent speech, bring peace? or is it better to be the change we want to see?

the woman at the anti-war center brought up the point that peaceful discussion opens the door to understanding, putting both parties on a common ground where they are more able to hear each other. when we are caught up in the cycle of anger and reaction, rather than calmly responding, our energies shut down. we litterally close ourselves off to change, even if it what we desire. there is simply no room for it to get in when we are closed down and projecting rage. our vision becomes narrow and focused only on our grief, blinding us to the possibilities of positive change.

that is not to say that our rage isn't justified or valid. my son and i discussed the reality of anger walking home from the center. "everybody gets angry," damien observed, "even the hippiest hippy." and i have to admit i thought of you when he said that. i think the real key is not in denying our anger, but how we use it. when we desire peace anger is most effectively used as a tool for awareness, not as a weapon to be flung at those who disagree. in order for this to happen, we must not deny, repress or ignore our anger, but observe it, and understand it rather than riding it unconsciously.

there are actually quite a few Christian peace organizations, from the Quakers who have been unjustly harrassed and investigated as potential "terrorists" (terrorist Quakers?!?!? ) to more mainstream and even evangelical groups. I believe the Pope has frequently stated his opposition to the war, and said in his Easter address that "nothing positive" was happening in Iraq.

 

I have had two friend die in Iraq- two more are still fighting this war.

To say we should not support the troops- I find that completely offensive.

You do realize people dont join the army to fight in wars they dont want to, right? My friends joined to get their college tuition paid off. They came from a family and part of town where the only way to get ahead was- you guessed it- to join the military.

Some people take advantage of the opportunity to better themselves. Its easy for you to say "well, find a job and pay for college on your own." Trust me- I've been there- its not at all that easy.

It is the government which aims to trap people into this situation- by offering them "a way out." Any person with self-respect and a goal in life would take that hand out- all they are trying to do is make something of themselves.

 

True. Let's remember many of our troops are victims of the economic draft.

 

i'm dirt poor and I never joined the military........

 

Must we revisit this?

 

then perhaps instead of parading our self-righteousness we ought to be doing more to reach out to desperately impoverished youth and show them their alternatives.

tell me, those of you who are against supporting individuals rather than the corrupt and exploitive system, what are you doing in terms of counter-recruiting efforts? I mean besides bitching to strangers on an internet forum.

sorry guys, it's been a rough night and my birthday sunday sucked ass. please forgive me, but i'm running out of tact.

 

oh and before anyone asks me, i'll go first. i'm donating time and the use of my business to raise funds and awareness for the new peace center up the street from me (see the thread about the anti-war storefront) which offers counter-recruitment counselling.

ok, who's next? c'mon, don't be a chicken-dove! what are you doing for counter-recruitment?

 

What if they want to?

 

i support the fact that they are over their dieing...but i dont support the president...
"I support our troops,but question my leaders"

 

unfortunately a lot of disadvantaged youth don't know that. they don't know what their options are. and no, not everyone can do the same as you. many have different circumstances that would prevent them from doing things the same way you have - they do have other options, but often they don't know what they are. especially since in high schools, many guidance counsellors may present the military as their only or easiest option, much preferable to community college, trade school, apprenticeships, work-study, travel, building a resume through volunteerism, small business, or any of the other options that do exist and are very real but don't have the publicity budget of the military. many young men and women are told by their guidance counsellors that they have two options: the military or mcdonald's, because they're not smart enough, good enough, wealthy enough, etc for college. this of course is bullshit - but who is there to tell the students this when the military is there right by the lunch room, in JROTC, and handing out glossy brochures in the guidance office? it takes more than forum posting to reach these people and let them know what their real, promising options are. preaching at them, ranting at them, calling them mercenaries and killers when no one has come foreward in a supportive, professional manner and presented them with other options is kind of hypocritical.

when we rant at the chicken-hawks "when are you going to enlist" we should remember that that applies to us, too. if we are opposed to the military, then when are we going to put in our time supporting and promoting the alternatives?

I stopped by the anti-war center this afternoon to get a list of anti-recruitment resources to post, but they were closed (they've been open for about a week and are under-staffed) and it was raining, so i'll try again later. i'd like to post some links that people here who feel strongly opposed to the military can find out what they can do to promote the alternatives.

 

I agree.

Why waste all this time trashing the troops- why not go to the source of the problem?

I respect your counter-recruitment efforts- but why provide a temporary fix instead of aiming for reform? To me, it just seems like a waste of time and money.

 

i had more i tried to post earlier about counter-recruiting resources, but my computer ate it and then i had to try on a bridesmaid's dress (my friends sharon and rob, who met each other here on the hipforums, are getting married saturday, and i'm the maid of horror, er, honor) so i didn't get to repost.

edited again to remove the redundant paragraph i thought my computer ate with the rest of the stuff i tried to post earlier.

i stopped by the counter-recruiting center, as i said, for resources, but they were closed, and by the time i was done with the damn dress it was too late, so i'll stop by again tomorrow. i want to see more people investing in youth by becoming active with counter-recruiting. it's much more effective than ranting and debates on forums. but seriously, if we're going to be asking the chicken-hawks "when are you going to enlist?" we need to remember the same standard applies to us. we have to show up and put our values into action, too. we need to be there and be compassionate and supportive, rather than shaming and preaching, to the ones who don't really support war but enlist because they feel they have no other choice. and we need to be a living example that there are more peaceful, ethical, and yes, even patriotic ways of supporting our country (our real country, not the politicians and big business who think they run the place) than getting involved in immoral, illegal wars. our anger is justified, but it's a tool we need to use wisely. we need to lay a path of empowerment and education, not rage and blame, or no one's ever going to listen to us.

skip, you are in the unique position to do something very powerful to help our youth and show them what their options are. i haven't been by the hippyland site in months, it's been a little nutty with vending season starting and all the wedding stuff, but what information do you have about counter-recruitment and alternatives to the military posted? hippyland and the hip forums get hits from thousands of teens and young adults every day. if alternatives were presented in a supportive, empowering way that was easy to find, it could change a lot of lives. what resources do you have on counter-recruiting and alternatives to the military? can you post some links? maybe sticky them here, in higher ed, or young hippies? if you had a visible military alternatives page off of hippyland, i'm sure a lot of people would notice, and it'd make more of a positive difference than angrily ranting and pissing people off who might otherwise listen to us.

 

What if someone wants to join the forces?

 

Skip, could you please quote your source for that?

 

i'm not sure what his sources are, but i have heard that too. i believe i'd first heard about it from a parenting/homeschooling magazine or website.