Some People Think Different Things About God And Heaven

believing in, and using imagination, are two very different things.
in a world where everyone were natural and healthy, we'd all believe different things than each other
and have no problems with each other about doing so.

if anything, its because so many people want to say they believe the same things
because they've been taught to expect each other to do so
that we have so many problems that we do

strange mysterious beings with strange mysterious powers
none of them having the slightest desire to be feared or worshiped
may not have much to do with the rocks and trees we stub our toes on by light of day or dark of night
but what do devils and daemons and angels and gods give us
that these might not?

what does fear and anger and hatered and aggressiveness give us?
what does trying to impress each other to feed our egos really gratify?

we don't know what there is, outside of science.

we don't know the limits of what can or can't be.
so what would we loose to invent harmless things
instead of devils and daemons and all those things
to be our virtual punching bags,
boss battles in video games?

where have we gotten to, that its become such an alien thought,
to play first person builders, instead of first person destroyers?

tell my some crazy joker coyote god, didn't invent humans as some kind of really stupid joke on himself.

 

Fiction is implicitly understood to be just that. Our children believe Santa Claus is real because we assure them that he is. Then when they are older, we break the news to them that he's not. This is no different.

No child reads Little Red Riding Hood and thinks that somewhere out there are talking wolves; nor would explaining to her that it's art, it's fiction, it's imagination, would somehow remove her of the magic of life and imagination.

You are trying to defend imagination and creativity, I am trying to protect from delusion. There is no conflict here.

 

There's nothing wrong with allowing kids to explore fantasy and imagination, it becomes an issue when the kids are told the fantasy is reality, or at least shielding the kid from the reality.

By the way, Sesame Street has some educational value sometimes, including basic science. That is not the issue, the concern would be more along the lines of telling the kid something along the like "Now that Mamaw is dead, she's going to live on Sesame Street."

 

I guess I am just a fan of "if it ain't broke don't fix it."

I'd hate to see children forced to grow up too quickly.

I feel like, may as well introduce child labor because isn't that the reality of life? Need to work, need to earn money to live. May as well teach our kids that then.

 

whats the difference? i can imagine that being told i was going to get to live on Sesame street when i die, i might be a little bit dissapointed when i realize that i spent my entire life waiting for something that was never going to happen and could have spent my time better trying to understand the real world as best that I could ... of course, if there is not an afterlife I wouldnt be alive to be disapointed. if there is any existence after death i cant claim to know anything about what it might be like.

 

Is that a rhetorical question? If not, I think you more or less answered what my response would be in the bolded part for why shaping a worldview on fantasy is an issue. I don't think one would have to wait out their entire lives to experience the clash with reality either. I mean even as a child, I assume having to constantly be on the defensive of defending 'afterlife Sesame Street' would be tough, the way I'm sure some kids have issues when other kids tell them Santa Claus isn't real.



It's baffling to me that parents who supposedly love their kids would flat out lie regarding stuff like Santa Claus. I guess with Heaven, it's not really a 'lie' if the parent believes it too but not relaying the information they do know for certain regarding the physical process of death seems like a disservice to the child.

 

To be fair, a lot of parents perpetuate Santa simply so they don't fuck it up for other kids.

Like, my wife and I have a kid who'll be 3 in a few months.
Our plan has been to let him believe in Santa for as long as we have to.
I'd love to be up front and honest with my kid about Santa, but letting that lie happen is all about not fucking it up for other kids/families... or having to deal with their trauma as they scream at me on the phone or some shit.

But, we aren't going full Santa.
Like, the good shit? That comes from us... "we bought you that tablet kid, ain't no magic about it".
But, Santa can still bring around a wooden pull toy or some shit, y'know?

Because, we also believe in the power of imagination and creativity and whatever else.
Faeries, monsters, unicorns, etc... all that will be heavily encouraged.


On the other hand, we're planing on being careful about religion.
If he wants to choose one when he gets older, fine... just don't be a dick.
But we won't be pushing him in any particular religious direction.

Is there a Heaven? Maybe.
Hell? Maybe.
Nothing? Maybe.
Any of a number of other ideas, religious or not, are also possible.


But none of us... NONE OF US... can say what comes after death with any absolute certainty.

 

So you think not fucking it up by exposing a blatant lie to keep kids ignorant and pacified with fantasy is less detrimental for their development than fucking up children's ability to discern reality from fantasy?

This may be a bit of slippery slope on my part but I think this is the type of 'rationale' which leads to stuff like Ancient Aliens being a premiere show on the HISTORY channel and why conspiracy theories are so en vogue these days.

 

There is altogether too much focus and too much worrying about what happens when we die. In the end it doesn't really matter. An afterlife doesn't make this life any better or worse. Sure, you want to have good experiences FOREVER, but would forever make the experiences you do have any better or worse? Maybe this life is all we'll ever have, but so what? It's a LOT. It's a TON.

 

what i hated as a child, and continue to hate as an adult, is seeing children held back from growing up, on the pretense of not forcing them to.
i think its a really lame bullshit excuse to deny reality to them.

do you think children in cultures that live closer to nature and reality, are somehow worse off, for seeing rocks and trees and earth and life and death with their own eyes,
then the children in coddled cultures, where even adults, knowing nothing but cars and sports and soap operas, deny the universe beyond human society to themselves and each other?

 

absolutely. whatever may or may not come after this life, WE have THIS life, in our own hands, that WE together, can make as wonderful or horrendous, as WE statistically choose to.

 

I grew up on a farm. So I don't think nature and "reality" is worse off. No.

But this farm was run by a family of Christians. We saw death all the time I suppose, animals fed us, fed a lot of others too. We were still raised to believe that there was a higher presence and paradise of an afterlife.

I don't think in any way shape or form misled any of us in the family I mean, we've all grown up now and I know all 4 us believe in different things. No animosity there, though.

If you raise a child in an atheist environment and they grow up and decide religion is the way to go, what happens there?
These arguments are always so one sided, it's always someone coming out of a strict religious home that can't get along with mommy and daddy because they believe in nothing.

 

Well, first of all, I wasn't giving an opinion, just stating a reality... a lot of parents DO avoid telling the truth about Santa simply to avoid their kid telling their class at school that Santa is fake and then having to deal with all those parents.
On the other hand, there's also a simple joy in the magic of Christmas.
And I can't say I know of a single person who is fucked up because, when they were kids, they were told Santa was real.

I figure, if I can let my kid believe in dragons and fairies, is it that bad to allow Santa for the first several years?

 

Really...

http://metro.co.uk/2014/12/20/this-mum-of-two-has-never-got-over-finding-out-santa-isnt-real-sorry-kids-4994276/


I'm sure this is a rare instance, I doubt many people get 'fucked up' in such overt ways from discovering Santa isn't real but perhaps it manifests in other ways, such as depression and what not.

 

i see the use of the word "always" as being "one sided". i don't see what 'arguments' you are labeling as such.

also how is it not 'one sided' to say every other religion is false, if it doesn't happen to relate to your own?

how would your example be any different, if your farm had been run by buddhists, or daoists, or indiginous people?

your argument suggesting that adopting a different belief then ones parents, somehow demonstrated a lack of maturity makes no sense either.

if anything, it suggests a greater maturity, to investigate and look into things, rather then the intellectual laziness, of taking them for granted.

 

This guy admitted to being a complete and total fraud, who's spent years pretending to be different people to pose disingenuous arguments for christianity here on HF, and that he's now decided to spend a while in "sanctuary", the anti-free-speech zone where nobody can question his bullshit, even though he can leave that zone and spread it at will.

I mean, I'm sure he'd consider it within the rules, and therefore totally fine, because hurrdurr what is context?

Let it die.

 

i would, but its a good topic. EVERYONE believes different things about almost everything. SOME people lie to themselves and pretend they don't.
many people have enough they believe in common with other people to identify themselves with one name brand flavor of belief or another,
but i'm reasonably certain, a majority of people who identify with one belief or another, recognize that even among their fellow co-religionists,
NO two people, believe exactly the same things, even about it.

 

Well yes, and no matter how close you get, feelings are like colors (or rather, colors are feelings, but an example of the rest): how can you REALLY know what they're like for ANYONE else? Everyone can use the same words but have learned dramatically different feelings to associate with them.

But OP isn't making these threads to stimulate us, it's to waste our time and trick us into the same old discussion, after he lost last time around. The context is stifling, it's like having ted cruz lead a bold scientific effort to study global warming.... you can have the best crack team in the world, and if ted cruz is at the helm, what the hell good is it?

 

a bit late on my response .. yes it was a rhetorical question (what i was trying to convey is that i dont see much difference between one fantasy and the other thats not entirely based on reality). IMO kids need to learn the correct way to think and reason as early as possible, before developing bad habits that will be hard to break later on. not sure how i would deal with the santa clause issue until/if i have kids. maybe tell them that it may be possible that santa clause is the reason for the gifts but that you cant be sure until you find some evidence, so maybe they should try and see if they can observe this santa doing what it is claimed that he does .. if this cannot ever be observed i might suggest looking for other more plausible explanations. might be a good way to explain the principle of occams razor as well.

 

You don't even need to deal with the Santa issue, kid'll find out at school anyway.