question? cult vs religion

Discussion in 'Cults' started by TheChoosenOne, Aug 5, 2009.

  1. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    In the broadest of perspectives we could say that the cult is to cultivate, culture. To indoctrinate with ritual reward and taboo. In my view, nationalism is a variety of occult practice.
     
  2. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    It doesn't have anything to do with logic, that is the whole point. Logically speaking, religions and cults would not exist.

    As for the rest of your reply;

    The standards and acceptance DO change with the times and places so I'm not sure what your argument is.

    I am saying is that religions and cults are the same thing.

    The labelling of them as one or the other is the public acceptance part.

    And just because some who follow a cult may not consider their practices as harmful, doesn't mean it really isn't.
     
  3. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    Hey, you're right, that is handy for identifying cults.
     
  4. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    1. Step 1
      The Vatican is the top with all rulings coming from the Pope, downward
    The doctrines are dictated by the Pope, but those below him are debate with him freely. Cults don't have this freedom.

    The Pope again, even though in the case of the current one, only the last two would apply

    People can and often do disagree with the Pope and are free to do so.


    1. Step 3
    Ecommunication, 'Confessionals', bible camps, christian retreats etc

    Clubs do the same.

    Donation plates and boxes to retreats

    No one is forced to make donations. That's the major difference between a cult and a religion is the freedom.

    Is it not the duty of every chrsitian to spread the word and bring the lost sheep back to the flock?


    Yes it is, but like the above answers, freedom is important.

    Also this one is discussing how much time is being enforced. In a cult it isn't about being a volunteer it's about intimidating the person to do so. People are free to do whatever inside the Catholic church (I am not a Catholic).

    Any religion that follows a families or friends religion will be 'positive' by this measure, while any that go against the 'accepted' one will cause strife


    This one is about whether or not the person is being controlled. Is the person still able to disagree with the church leaders and members? Is the person still free to choose what goes on in their personal life? If yes, then it is not a cult. Again, it's about freedom.

    Read the posts in the christian groups regarding disagreement with the bible

    Yes people within the religion often argue against the interpretation, but it is encouraged. Everyone is still free to do so, in a cult, people are too afraid to disagree.

    Christians beleive that non christians are going to burn in hell do they not?


    Yes many Christians believe so and many Christians do not believe in that doctrine. This question is again about freedom of choice and whether or not those within the group have a negative outlook on 'outsiders'. Of course someone who believes in something will argue their point and think others are wrong, but again it's about freedom.

    Many that call themselves Christian have contempt for those outside and their are also those that don't feel that way.
     
  5. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    I should have kept reading on that page...

     
  6. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    How was I being defensive? :/

    I was just pointing out the difference between cults and religions is amount of freedom they have. If they have freedom then it isn't a cult. If they don't have freedom and their personalities are taken from them, then it is a cult.

    If it helps to know, I am not a Catholic.
     
  7. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    It doesn't matter a single bit which cult you choose to follow or not deaf.

    As for the differences you see, I do not see them. What you consider to be freedoms, I see as slightly longer and better decorated leashes.

    As for the personality comment... Have you ever talked to kids who come out of bible camps as 'true believers' or to freshly 'saved' christians?
     
  8. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    It does matter if we are trying to answer the question of the OP. Some believe that there is no difference and others believe there is a major difference. The definitions that are used to define cults don't appear to correlate with free to participate religions.

    You can see them in that way if you want. It just doesn't seem to go along the definitions and doesn't seem to be very honest imo.

    I haven't but I have met some nice church goers.
     
  9. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    When you tell someone that you are free to believe what you want, but if you don't believe me, you will burn in hell for eternity, that is not freedom, that is a leash.

    Just because some will choose not to put that leash on, does not mean it isn't a leash.
     
  10. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    People can still choose whether or not they want to believe in hell and the religion that preaches it. If you mean those that aren't choosing to believe in that and use that to control a persons desire to be in that religion then yes, you're right, that is cultish.

    But with that said, it's still a matter of freedom and many people choose to follow and choose to leave whenever they wish to. In a cult, this is very difficult to do if not impossible.
     
  11. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    When it is indoctrined into children practically from birth it is an extremely difficult thing to choose to ignore the threat of hellfire.

    See, I think you are missing that the larger a cult is, the more loosely the constraints must be held on it. When you are looking at what you term as cults, they are usually very tiny in number compared to the mainstream cults. Any cult (according to your definition) that grew to the size of the catholic religion, would seem to have just as many 'freedoms' as you claim it has now.
     
  12. def zeppelin

    def zeppelin All connected

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    The Catholic church has many factors that can be viewed as a cult. I personally believe that they have qualities of a cult and can enforce certain things to the point of being controlling but not always and depends on the church. But I don't think it is this clear cut. I would say that the church is Scientology and the Church of the Later Day Saints as being worlds different from the RCC. While many are born into the belief, many are converts and study these things on their own and come to these beliefs on their own.

    The cult leader being someone who discourages disagreement. Someone who is not a cult leader is open to disagreements.
     
  13. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    Show me where the pope is open to disagreement.

    There have been many splinters off the catholic religion, precisely because of disagreements that led to the ousting of members. It has generally been met by the papacy with excommunication and/or censure. Some of these splinter groups are welcomed back in, some move further away in stances as each struggles to garner more sheep for their flocks.

    The catholic church did everything in their power to keep their believers living in ignorance in order to better control them and keep them as followers. That is precisely how it came to be such a large and rich organization, with of course, the lions share of that loot flowing straight to the leaders of it in the vatican.

    As soon as a spiritual practice becomes organized so that there is a power structure in place, it is a cult. As it gains power and acceptance, it moves from the label of a cult, to the label of a religion, but it does not change it's nature.
     
  14. neodude1212

    neodude1212 Senior Member

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    That doesn't really make sense. Logic doesn't necessarily have to be at odds with belief. No one is 100% logical, every human on this planet has beliefs, so, logically speaking, religions and cults DO exist.

    My point is that your criteria for what makes a cult a cult isn't very defining because your criteria is something that isn't even a universal application, and is something that changes so often.
    To be honest, it seems like you are arbitrarily grouping religion and cult together because you realize that the word 'cult' has a negative connotation, and you want to malign religion or display your disdain for religion by saying they are the same thing.
     
  15. ChronicTom

    ChronicTom Banned

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    Quoted so that you can re-read this later on....
     
  16. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    cult [kult]
    (plural cults)
    n
    1. religion: a system of religious or spiritual beliefs, especially an informal and transient belief system regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false, and directed by a charismatic, authoritarian leader
    2. religious group: a group of people who share religious or spiritual beliefs, especially beliefs regarded by others as misguided, unorthodox, extremist, or false
    3. idolization of somebody or something: an extreme or excessive admiration for a person, philosophy of life, or activity (often used before a noun)
    the cult of youth
    a cult hero

    4. object of idolization: a person, philosophy, or activity regarded with extreme or excessive admiration
    5. fad: something popular or fashionable among a devoted group of enthusiasts (often used before a noun)
    has taken on cult status

    6. cultural anthropology system of supernatural beliefs: a body of organized practices and beliefs supposed to involve interaction with and control over supernatural powers
    7. sociology elite group: a self-identified group of people who share a narrowly defined interest or perspective


    [Early 17th century. Directly or via French < Latin cultus "worship" < colere "cultivate"]
     
  17. thedope

    thedope glad attention Lifetime Supporter

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    re·li·gion [ri líjjən]
    (plural re·li·gions)
    n
    1. beliefs and worship: people's beliefs and opinions concerning the existence, nature, and worship of a deity or deities, and divine involvement in the universe and human life
    2. system: an institutionalized or personal system of beliefs and practices relating to the divine
    3. personal beliefs or values: a set of strongly-held beliefs, values, and attitudes that somebody lives by
    4. obsession: an object, practice, cause, or activity that somebody is completely devoted to or obsessed by
    The danger is that you start to make fitness a religion.

    5. christianity monk's or nun's life: life as a monk or a nun, especially in the Roman Catholic Church


    [12th century. Via French < Latin religion- "obligation, reverence"]
     
  18. tikoo

    tikoo Senior Member

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    what's the glue holding a group together ? a fondness for blue oysters perhaps .
     
  19. spazmataz

    spazmataz Member

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    its numbers. scientology, once accepted as a cult, last time i heard they were insisting they should be recognized as a religion. i hope they are, it will show the other religions just how little difference there is.
     
  20. scratcho

    scratcho Lifetime Supporter Lifetime Supporter

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    One is for power over people and the other is--is--oh never mind.
     

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