On the Eve of the Battle of Falluja

He was commenting on the fact that some people seem to think that just because we have occupied their land, that justifies their terrorism and that they are some sort of wonderful people. I didn't think us getting spat on by another country justified ours, it doesn't justify theirs.

Besides, the sooner they stop being asshats, the sooner our puppets get in place, and the sooner our gov't lets our boys come home. Then they are damn free to do whatever they please....overthrow the damn government if they don't like it. I'm aware it's a simplistic way to look at things, but I'm damn tired of the whole situation.

 

And the error you make in explaining what was patently obvious in the first place is your insistence on calling patriotic Iraqi citizens, rightfully fighting against our illegal invasion and continued occupation, "terrorists". This is the paradigm of thought created by OUR military establishment and heard time and again by those of us who have witnessed this same sort of wartime propaganda long before you were born.

It is their country, we are the ones in the wrong (and have been from the start unless you advocate lies, fraud and corruption in our government as an acceptable status quo) and thus the Iraqis have no more call to simply let their self-determined sovereign will be brushed aside than would you or andrew, I suspect, or any other US citizen when seeing your neighbors killed and arrested and your local infrastructure demolished to serve some other country's agenda.

If you think you're sick of it, try those of us who have seen this same grasping corporate serving warmaking against numerous nations repeatedly for decades. Time to open your eyes and see it is Washington who are the asshats who need to pack up shop and leave the Iraqis alone to decide their own future. Anything less is merely further excuse for patriarchal domination and smug, self-righteous cultural relativism.

 

God forbid they defend their country from occupying forces.

 

Jesus fucking Christ, I explained why they were terrorists already. No, don't read that, that'd be too hard.

http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=592990&postcount=18
http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=599640&postcount=21
http://hipforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=599674&postcount=27

We're not innocent, neither are they. Defending their country also means defending their people, NOT KILLING THEM!

God damn....

You can damn well be assured that if anyone came over here and took over things like we have over there, I'd be fighting, but I would not be killing my own. It's fucking ridiculous to think that's "freedom fighting"....it's not, it's sick...it's power hungry, just like our gov't.

 

Well we brought the terrorists into Iraq. Our invasion weakened the country. Saddam (and I am not saying he is a good guy or anything) and his military were very experienced at keeping control of those terrorists groups. They were merciless with them. When we invaded and destroyed the Iraq military we left the country weak to terrorists groups.

 

You would indeed be killing any who collaborated with the foreign power on our soil and dont paint this holier than thou bullshit image to the contrary. Those especially who have repeatedly tried to liken this morally to WWII would do well to recall what was done to those French who collaborated with the Nazis and their installed Vichy government.

Iraqis intent on fighting patriotically for their own sovereign self determination would naturally view any of their fellow citizens signing up to support the US-centric interests of the (ever dwindling) "coalition" and its corrupt INA/INC puppets as traitors to Iraq every bit as much as any red blooded gun toting flag waving US citizen would toward those signing up with occupiers on our soil. Hell, even without war on our soil we have just come out of more than a year of hearing countless gung ho military vets calling John Kerry a traitor and he was only running for President, not shelling your neighborhoods.

Have you warmongers become so denial-ridden and dense as to be incapable of demonstrating any consistency in your moral pronouncements upon others?

 

Oh god, whatever Lick. Yeah go on viewing them as heros then, even while they're killing the kids over there, even while the don't give a damn about the civilians who want nothing to do with the US but happen to be in the way. You're really a dumbass. And it's fucking hilarious you call me a warmonger by ignoring all the times I've said I oppose this war. God man. Get your head out of your ass.

And how dare you assume something like this about me when you know nothing about me at all. For one thing, I said up there in the other post that I would be fighting, I however never said I would be killing. I've never been a violent person, I couldn't imagine myself being a violent person. I would laugh if there ever is a draft and they called me up because I would be useless to them. I've never even punched anyone except my older brother. You have some nerve assuming I'm such a person when I've always prided myself on the fact that I'm not. You're quite the offensive little know-it-all aren't you?


PS for andrew= Don't worry hon, my 1st class was cancelled today...teacher was sick.

 

And yet you are so ready to call a people - whose land is invaded by those whom you supposedly acknowledge have lied repeatedly over the real agenda and intents of this invasion - "terrorists" though you dont know a single one of them nor the conditions we imposed on them for more than a decade in preparation for this invasion.

I submit, despite your protestations, that if you wish to demonstrate any honesty in this discussion you would stop and consider that the reason you claim that THEY are "terrorists" in fighting back (as any US patriot would) by whatever means they can against a superior military machine (which has already killed more in one year than Saddam killed in 25) and any who collaborate with it, is simply because that is the very term regurgitated on every report on the conflict across the spectrum of mainstream reporting. Youve so internalised the groutphink mentality that you cant even avoid using its fraudulent terminology.

Maybe you have never done more than hit your brother, but then likely most in the insurgency never harmed others until they had to watch their parents, brothers/sisters/children starved by 12 years of brutal sanctions, destroyed by radiation sickness from depleted uranium brought to Iraq by US, and ultimately shot, bombarded and subjugated once again in this invasion.

You suffer all that, and the concurrent villification of "terrorist" for defending your own home and soil and then come tell us how you would fight "but not kill". Wouldn't be much of a stand in defence of what you claim to hold dear if you werent prepared to kill those trying to kill or subjugate you. How dare you YOU call THEM "terrorists" until you've seen the world and Washington's repeated machinations in their country as they have. Even the interim stooge Allawi lived cozily away from the deprivation and suffering until he was ushered back to serve Washignton's interests.

Ours is a land of the most willfully blind and relativistic hypocrites!

 

I'm sorry, no matter what a person has been through, there is NO EXCUSE for setting off a car bomb in an area where children are at a celebration of a new sewage facility. There is NO EXCUSE for the way they hide behind the children and mothers, etc. so that the US soldiers won't kill them, but when the children and mothers are surrounding the soldiers they have no problem setting off bombs and shooting at them. NO EXCUSE WHATSOEVER

 

And where are your tears for the some 3000 missiles we rained down on civilians in Baghdad at the start of this invasion or the apache rocket fire into city neighborhoods that again kill women and children by the scores (all duly noted and dismissed as mere "collateral damage").

Ah yes, must make issues over a car bomb cause thats what the news highlights even as it remains unsurprisingly silent on the exponentially greater destruction and "terrorism" we perpetrate daily upon a land we have no right to be attacking in the first place.

Groupthink hypocrite!

 

GOOD FUCKING GOD! You know, I did shed tears when we started this war you dumbass. Like I've said a million freakin times before, we shouldn't be there, I don't agree with it, we aren't innocent. But that does NOT make what these "insurgents" are doing RIGHT! Instead of saying "yeah you're right about that" or "I agree with so-and-so you said, but not blah blah", or even "no, let me enlighten you a bit because there are some flaws in your thinking about this issue" you just go off insulting me as a hypocrite, as a warmonger, as blind! I'm well aware of what we've done over there, I'm actually pretty aware of the past over there since we've just begun learning about it in one of my classes, I have opposed the war from the start, I am against violence, I am against this administration. I am aware at how guilty we are and how many people we have killed, but none of that excuses the "insurgents" of what they're doing either. Just because we're doing something wrong, doesn't automatically make them right. That's all I'm trying to say dammit.

 

Lick you have no right to call anyone a groupthink hypocrite. Everything you have ever said sounds like the same jackass pompass bullshit propaghanda.
You also fail to mention the random attacks the insugents do on their own people. Shooting people in the back when they try to flee the city. Taking their children hostage so they can use them as human sheilds. Overunning the police stations "so they can instill a better rule."

You just need to shut the fuck up, I have never heard you agree with anyone. Your prolly a thesaurus bot anyway.

 

Oh now I see, "since our occupation, insurgents came out." It still doesn't make it right that people are killing their own people.

I hope they instill the draft now some of you people need to get in harms way for a bit, so you can see how the world really is. Its not as black and white as you try to make it.

 

Thing is, our occupation of Iraq has brought in these insurgents you are talking about. This wouldnt be happening if it wern't for us. We are responsible for their being there.

Of course that doesn't make their actions right, but it doesn't make our actions right either.

The problem is, this "war on terror" is that you can't fight an idea with an army. That's like fighting a war on depression, or a war on happiness, or a war on hunger using military force. We can't win a war on terror. And it is stupid to send army's out to fight an idea. A "war on terror" is obviously going to cause nothing but more terror, and any mildly intelligent person could tell you that.

People need t stop buying into the gov't bullshit.

 

Where in my post do I say that it is okay for these people to do what they are doing? All I was pointing out is that we weakened the country with our occupation, and made it possible for these insurgents to do this kind of activity. Saddam and his military were experienced and controlling the many violent groups in the area.

You are the one looking at it in black and white. I say that our occupation weakened the country enough to allow for these insurgents, and you assume I think what they are doing is okay...

 

what is your suggestion then sera? how do we combat terrorism?

Should we have let osama bin laden sit in afghanistan and plan more attacks against us? What should we do?



Maybe we need to step up Operation Coca Cola and make some more good westerners

 

You fight it with damn good intelligence and defense.

 

How many lies and errors can people stuff into one topic.

If that's the depth of your thinking, then the French should have set up IEDs when British troops came ashore at Normandy. And you would have sympathised with Nazis kidapping and murdering journalists in Berlin. Try a little harder.

Saddam build his own chemical weapons, he did not buy them from anyone.

Speak for yourself.

Actually, the US and UK sold a combined 1% of Iraq's arms. The vast majority were from France, Russia, and China. http://www.command-post.org/archives/002978.html

Just a "mysterious coincidence"? Ignoring that nonsense, tell me, has the US "grabbed" Western Europe and Japan? No, both states were rebuilt as free and democratic nations which eventually became two of the most powerful economies in the world. Compare that to what Russia "grabbed".

First of all, nobody expected the US to turn around and leave without ensuring the country had a functioning government. In fact most people would argue that Iraqis were upset the Americans DIDN'T do enough to quickly establish a functioning government capable of ensuring civil order. Secondly, the only thing the US has done with the oil ministry is SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDE oil from the privatisation agenda.

Which is exactly what they are doing. It is easier to type these things into a forum message than to make them happen.

Myth after myth after myth. The 9/11 hijackers were neither poor nor uneducated. And the US was the largest provider of emergency food aid to Afghanistan while the 9/11 plot was being planned. Obvsiouly, nobody looked at the US flags on the sacks of wheat outside their tent and had second thoughts about flying hijacked civilian airliners into the World Trade Center.

 

See, I completely agree with that.

 

Sounds like youre the one buying into the lies and propaganda. Given that most of the pre-war inflated claims against Saddam came from Chalabi and co (as duly substantiated in other threads), such claims as "throwing babies from incubators, killing hundreds of thousands, etc. all debunked as politically inspired emotive fables to push the country to war.

So how easily you place your faith in yet further reports of the magnitude you so angrily recite without considering the long known fabrications put out by our military industrial complex during its expeditionary war ventures (see once again The Pentagon Papers for just how flagrantly the lies are heaped upon an unquestioning public) rather than considering that any and all chaos there results from OUR actions, not those patriots our military machine so transparently villifies with terms like " terrorist" (thus providing the latitude to ascribe any number of civilian deaths to them rather than to our own warmongering).

Groupthink is as groupthink regurgitates and fails to question. Tough shit if you dont like the label. Stop believing the rhetoric and televised bs and revisit the same lies sold to the public over Vietnam and perhaps you might finally see through the fraud in its entirety and realise that WE are the terrorists in THEIR land and that without our continued presence (and that of our puppets) they would no longer have cause to respond in kind to our daily assaults and indignities.