On reaching a consensus re mass shootings in the U.S.

Are you saying that they have repealed it, but haven't appropriated spending, or that they haven't repealed it? I thought it was supposedly repealed with the passage of the spending bill.

 

found it. dang it! I thought it was repealed.

What does the spending bill do for gun violence research? - CNNPolitics

 

No I consider possession of firearms as contributing to the environment.

 

Here is the language:

Gun violence

In an effort to address gun deaths, negotiators included a bipartisan proposal to boost compliance with the National Instant Criminal Background Check System. Called “Fix NICS,” the bill emerged as a response to a Texas church massacre in November that might have been prevented if authorities had reported the shooter's violent history.

The measure would penalize federal agencies that fail to report relevant records and provide incentives to states to improve their overall reporting to NICS. It would also direct more federal funding to boost the accuracy of domestic violence records.

The spending bill also includes one sentence clarifying that the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention can conduct research on the causes of gun violence. The CDC stopped investigating that issue after Congress passed a 1996 amendment banning the agency from using any federal dollars to “advocate or promote gun control.”

Critics say that 1996 language had a “chilling effect” on research that has lasted more than two decades. The omnibus addresses that complaint by stating the CDC "has the authority to conduct research on the causes of gun violence."

 

There are a couple of other arguments lurking in the background that may easily be dismissed as non-rational but are still emotionally important to some gun advocates. One is the so-called " gun culture" which is particularly powerful in the South and West in the United States. As an Arkansas State police spokesman put it: "This is a part of the country and a state where it's unusual if a child doesn't grow up going out with dad and granddad to hunt deer, using a very powerful weapon." CNN - School shootings cast shadow on Southern gun culture - March 26, 1998 Gun ownership is an important rite of passage and an element in father-son bonding having almost mystical significance. I took my son on a camping trip with some of my buddies, and they were teaching him to shoot. "How does it feel, Mark?" Their awed, reverent tone made my son say later "That was kinda weird!" But it's a cultural and deeply emotional reality, and non-rational, deeply emotional sentiments are hard to combat with rational arguments. Historian Richard Hofstadter remarked: "the United States is the only modern industrial urban nation that persists in maintaining a gun culture. It is the only industrial nation in which the possession of rifles, shotguns, and handguns is lawfully prevalent among large numbers of its population". America As A Gun Culture | AMERICAN HERITAGE

Another consideration, relating to the self-defense argument we've considered but also fundamentally non-rational and deeply emotional is fear of a kind of Mad Max appocalytpic collapse of civil order. Even the seemingly sensible, respectable Ted Koppel has promoted this in his book Lights Out, which became the Bible for the "prepper" movement. Ted was more into stockpiling freeze dried food and solar cookers, but the fears created also led naturally to stockpiling arms to ward off the Road Warriors. Is this an irrational fear? I'd like to think so, but in an age of cyberwarfare I wouldn't rule it out. So can we agree that such non-rational sentiments aren't really irrational, are powerful, and need to be addressed in any effective legislation to protect schools and society from gun violence?

 

Guns are part of the culture, more so in certain parts of the country (ironically the ones with the worst educational statistics) but I don't see the relevance. Only fringe groups (I know the cult terrorist NRA, with less members than Scientology is also a fringe group) are proposing an all out ban. The cultural rituals around killing animals for sport for the purpose of male bonding wouldn't be interrupted by anything anywhere near a mainstream gun control policy.

The self-defense argument is absolutely ludicrous. The only time Americans took up arms against an over-reaching government was to protect the practice of owning other human beings. The math doesn't support guns being effective as personal self-defense and the Mad Max scenario is maybe a bit ... alramist

 

Tell your self defense story to one of the many people who've seen a corpse taken from their home that didn't belong to a person welcomed there.

 

I’m not suggesting it’s never happened. I’m saying if it happened 350,000 times last year mathematically you’re 0.1% safer than someone without a gun

And of course that’s before you deducted the number of accidental shootings

 

Agreed. Now how do we convince people who are part of the culture, without triggering negative reflexes.

Perhaps just a bit. But one of the churches around here is giving pointers on stockpiling in the "near certainty" of a prolonged interruption of the power grid by cyberattack--and they aren't Mormons. It wouldn't be the government folks anticipate taking up arms against. It would be maurading bands of painted "war boys". I personally am relying on at least some authorities still being active, capable, and at least semi-functional. The challenge is to instill confidence in the "alarmists". (Some of these are probably the same people who stand around watching approaching tornadoes without taking immediate shelter!) Everybody has to decide at some point what to do about feeling secure, and how much energy and resources to expend doing so. I figure if the zombie appolcalypse comes, I'll just try to blend in.

 

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lol the zombie apocalypse is essentially what these churches are talking about. Mind you they also believe in an invisible man that lives int he sky and speaks to them. Just how big of a stockpile does one need to feel secure against a prolonged interruption of power and armies of Red Dawn style wolverine marauders? It seems to me that's past the reasonable person standard and wandered into the realm of batshit crazy

 

Well I was in Fla when we had 3 hurricanes in 5 weeks. People would steal anything they could from each other. Those that fired warning shots, made out fine. Hope that never happens again. But it wasn't that long ago and certainly a very repeatable likelihood compared to Zombies.

I was also deployed to the Katrina aftermath. If you didn't have a weapon, you likely didn't stay alive. I would imagine PR was much the same. So put that as more of a realistic need to consider before you lol at how crazy you think it needs to be allowed for.

If the cyber terrorist take down our power grid (don't laugh they almost did and its being talked about now), you can bet you will be in a bad way if you aren't armed.

 

Or if I'm 1 in 350,000, I could be 100% dead without one. Either me, my direct family or the family of those close to me have been a victim of violent crime 3 times. So we are 3 in 8. And we aren't even in a place that's considered a crime area.

Those are the stats I know are real.

 

I just wanted to reiterate that the NRA, according to its website, has less members than the number of people that believe the earth is inhabited by shape-shifting reptilian aliens. That's the level of seriousness and credibility we apply toward their stance on mass shootings in the US

 

What is your point? Youre saying NRA members are a small but influential group?

 

A tenth of a percent, you mean tens of thousands of times more less safe than a child is from a mass shooting?

 

Whats i mean is the safety argument is bull shit. People have guns because they’re weak and have a fetish. The rest is rationalization in support of their self-esteem issues.

You can decide for yourself how many kids getting murdered in school is an acceptable number and what responsibility adults have in caring for children. If you’re okay with the number you need to be prepared to sacrifice your own kids for the perverse freedom

 

Lets just stop here.

This is why no one worth while will listen to you and youre nkt going to get anywhere.

It is pretty entertaining though to see what you lefties think thohgh.