Is There Any Room For God In Modern Science?

An interesting field of enquiry would be cures for which there is no clear scientific explanation.

There are many stories of people who say they have had miraculous cures to serious illness, for example Catholics who go to Medjugorje or Lourdes. And in many other instances. I think some scientific research has been done, but nothing definite ever seems to emerge. I remain open minded on this.

My own experience though has convinced me 100% about the potential healing value of psychedelics.

 

As to philosophers stone in terms of consciousness.. A philosopher engages in a certain attitude of attention, the philosophers consciousness. The stones properties turn what is base into what is refined and this ingredient is forgiveness.

 

I am familiar with Grof very well, as well as with psycholytic therapy, I have personally ingested LSD dozens of times (and about 15 other psychedelic compounds around a hundred times combined), I have personally experienced the transpersonal state described, dozens of times, and have guided others into this state, and it is my desire to incorporate this into my profession as much as possible.

I have experienced states of reality where time, space, self, meaning, all lost their normal meaning, and the sublime pulse of the cosmos rang throughout itself.

I am also an atheist. Nothing, about any of this, suggests that any theism or even deism is correct.

All these states are also described and practiced in Buddhism, which does not care a lick about gods.

As for "miraculous cures", it is important to not get sidetracked by an appearance of a number of cures which we cannot explain. First we must understand that diseases also manifest just as mysteriously; in medicine this is called idiosyncracy; ie, we don't understand why. The proportion of people who have idiosyncratic cures from visiting supposedly holy shrines compared to the staggering number of visitors each year (even each day) immediately puts this into perspective and outlines that the rate of idiosyncratic cures at these shrines is exactly the same as the rate of idiosyncratic cures if you just stayed at home.


This is another important point I want to address. Even if you were to find evidence that there must exist a deity, this would not be evidence that a particular system of theism is correct. People who believe in god, and certain religions, always present arguments which suggest the existence of something mysterious. Even if that were a god, you still would not have proven that it was the god that you believed in, and worshipped.

Proof of god is not proof that YWVH is real and the bible is holy and true and the jews are the chosen people, etc, etc.

This is a ubiquitous fallacy that I'm going to start really pointing at intently, because people come here with very particular beliefs, particular to their upbringing and geographical location (theres a reason we aren't constantly debating with muslims or hindus here) and offer arguments for the existence of a diety in general, forgetting that this is not a redemption of their particular faith.

Proving that god exists only proves that atheism is wrong, not that you are right.

 

I think you have to look at the actual content of these psychedelic experiences. Certainly some types of psychedelic experience do include some kind of divine power as far as the person having the experience is concerned. For example past life memories. If there's no re-incarnation then these could only be a form of psychodrama and not really on the transpersonal level. Since some say, myself included, they have derived actual physical healing from such experiences I think it's probable that something real is taking place.

Of course I can't prove that, and I did say that such experiences don't objectively prove the existence of god however conceived.

Philosophical Buddhism may not care much for gods, but in many schools forms of the Buddha and Bodhisattvas are worshipped as if they were gods. I have seen this first hand in friends who are into a Tibetan Buddhist sect.

On the question of cures received at shrines - even if it isn't some divine power at work, it would be interesting to know if in fact it is actually some power of the mind of which we are not fully aware that is producing the cure. Even mainstream medicine is becoming aware of the difference mental attitude can make in healing processes..

 

Did you read the part where I've had them myself ~100 times

I feel the sensible thing to do is to assume these are psychodrama, like what the entirety of psychedelic experience appears to be, and not think "Oh, someone imagines they were Napoleon on a high dose of a mind-shredding psychedelic, therefore we need to seriously consider that they were Napoleon and reincarnation is true".

I think there's a feeling that if it's your mind doing these things, then it's "just" your mind doing these things. I can't reject this sentiment more strongly; you might as well say that we are living in a "mere universe". Look at all this talk here about how we "spookily" create reality with our minds, through a magickal process, when in fact we create reality with our minds. You can't have it both ways; you can't have a reality based on what is going on in your mind, then when someone dreams up a reincarnation dream on a psychedelic, it suddenly must be something that is true "out there".

Yes, something real is definitely taking place. One of three things is happening:

1) you are deriving physical healing from a psychedelic experience because of the link between states of mind and bodily health (placebo effect, psychosomatism, regulation of chemicals such as cortisol, etc)

2) you are deluded into believing that you have received physical healing, when in fact you have received psychological healing and your disposition towards the original problem has shifted profoundly so as to render it subjectively ameliorated

3) the original problem was in fact psychological in nature and thus healed by a psychological intervention

I am aware of many religions which call themselves Buddhist and worship either Gautama Siddhartha, or an idealized form of Buddha, or some other third party, as a diety. For example Pure Land Buddhism holds that a certain sage thousands of years ago was so full of enlightenment and love that he is "holding open the door" to a kind of heaven which we will all attain upon death, regardless of moral or intellectual striving.

This is a non sequitor; you can also find people who worship Elvis religiously as a god, this does not mean that to study Elvis' music one must have a degree in theology.

People worship and diefy anything they can get their hands on; if those same buddhist theists were born in the heartland of america instead of buddhist asia, they would have been baptists.

This does not say a single thing about buddhism except that it works well as a traditional theistic religion if misinterpreted that way. I mean, they never really DO have a way to square what the buddha said (I am not a god, don't worship me) with the fact that they worship him like a god.

This is a foible of peoples, not of buddhism, which is an empirically-based system for reducing suffering in the mind.

You ask this as though it might be possible that there's something about the mind we don't know.

I believe we don't even understand 1% of the mind, and maybe 10% of the body. To me this seems glaringly obvious, that there are mysterious phenomena which science cannot explain but which it will strive towards, and likely achieve. Again, this is a non-sequitor when discussing the existence of supernatural elements such as dieties.

You might as well point to our uncertainty about the temperature of Pluto's core as proof that there really is something to the story of Odin.

 

Well that's pretty obvious. Only since I was talking about physical pain,certified to actually exist by a doctor and a physiotherapist, maybe psychosomatic would be a more accurate term.

The question is from whence did the problem arise?

If re-incarnation is real, as incidentally Buddhists seem to believe, then clearly it could come from a past life.

The fact though that an ongoing physical problem could disappear remains regardless.

 

you forgot the fourth possibilty

4) I don't know what is taking place and having never experienced such a phenomena as spontaneous healing myself, I am not in a position to make any definitive statements regarding it beyond my personal opinion.

 

I'm always a bit dubious about the value of sharing personal experiences of this type on the forums. It's not that other people's opinions have much effect on my understanding of them, or make me question my own judgement, but really it is impossible in a short post to convey anything of the depth or complexity involved. And without actually knowing someone personally, it is hard for others to know what to make of it, other than to slot it into whatever categories they have in their minds.

Also, as Freud said 'one owes oneself discretion'. Some things simply can't be aired in a public forum. They are too personal, too intimate.

 

THIS

 

And this achievement will take the form of the Scientific discovery and acknowledgement of Kundalini, which will inevitably shift our perspective of evolution. You need to live up to your end of the bargain when this happens, but I will be taking 70 percent, not you.

 

I was suggesting that this is not occurring by the time we reach the cellular level.

 

For as intelligent as physicists are, they really are pretty terrible at the nominal aspect of things... :rofl:

God Particle
(Quantum) Observer
Empty Space
Dark Matter/Energy
Black Hole


... are either misnomers or easily confused with other phenomena.

 

god is a vague concept, anyway...could mean anything including a particle....could mean the man in the moon....who cares.....
Is is a concept of the human psyche.

 

search your own souls or inner being for the answers.

 

Have you ever looked closely at a green leaf? It is very intricate with veins and such.....life is all around beating every moment......in many things.....why keep chasing something that you cannot feel, hear, taste, touch, see, smell. It is all there right in front of you.

 

Maybe the question then becomes who is it looking and experiencing all this life?

 

Me.
aren't you?

 

Yes - but what is 'me'? Just the ego? My idea or self image? My sense of myself maybe...Perhaps there are deeper layers beneath the surface. That's what I was getting at.

 

http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/0906/0906.4279.pdf