Is The Uncertainty Principle Incompatible With Determinism?

Yeah, it's not really teleportation. The entangled particles when in that state (this is coming from someone without a degree in physics, not even a humble undergraduate degree, so remember that if I'm wrong) must be "one in the same" in some way, so they're now part of the same system that is somehow instrinsically connected, i.e the two particles are really "one thing" in this state, so what happens to one must affect the other, irrespective of distance i.e. nonlocality. No idea about what physics make this possible, the answers may lie in string theory or M theory, or require higher dimensional space, where some of the dimensions are "compact", like maybe on the order of the planck length, and whatever information travels appearing to be at superliminal speeds is just some aspect of the entangled pair that has a(n) degree(s) of freedom in these compact dimensions where the distances would be much shorter than they appear.

Calling it telelportation though isn't completely wrong though I don't think, if you're referring to information. In this case information instantaneously, i.e at superluminal speeds. But you might as well call sending a message in a chat room to someone on the other side of the planet teleportation, only difference in this case is that the information can't travel faster than the speed of light.

Now there have been experiments where particles have been properly teleported, which means the teleported particle disappears, and comes into existence as an identical particle somewhere else, possibly faster than the speed of light. The particle, if i'm not mistaken is not teleported via quantum entanglement, IIRC it's different physics, but information about the particle could be send to the "receiving end" faster than light speed if that information was sent using pairs of entangled particles, with a catch, you have to get the particles into an entangled state first before seperating them AFAIK, and those particles still have to obey the universal speed limit until they reach their endpoints.

There have also been experiments (you would have to look this up, because I read about these many years ago and the physics was over my head and I don't quite remember the specifics) where they could shoot a particle, IIRC a photon but it could probably be done with other particles like electrons, and it would hit the detector before being sent; they of course had timers set up recording the times at both ends, and time on the detector when it detected the particle was earlier than the time when the particle was sent.

 

^ That's nonsense.

Quantum theory requires entanglement exist. One particle is linked to another regardless of distance. If one changes, the other changes. Instantaneously. I don't even know what you're talking about, sending chocolate milk to labs... That really has nothing to do with the existence of entanglement. And I don't know what you want to call spooky action at a distance if not teleportation, but I could really care less if you define it as teleportation or not.

You just showed up on this thread and started complaining about teleportation out of the blue. You haven't made the argument yet that teleportation can't exist. You've only said it hasn't happened yet. But it seems like you are totally opposed to the idea of teleportation in general. I am curious as to how emotionally involved you are with your own philosophy. What kind of world is it in which teleportation can't exist, and why do you like that world so much? I doubt you will answer these questions, but I really wish you would.

Who said that quantum entanglement had anything to do with predicting the future? When I said photons predict the future, I was referring to this:

Well if sensors can observe, then we're still stuck not knowing if this awareness of events has any impact on the events themselves.

 

If I'm thinking correctly, I read something similar one time and photons seem to have some sort of length actually. They aren't just little points ... you can change the distance of one path relative to the other path, after a certain difference in distance they can no longer interfere with each other, but up to a certain point they still can, it's like the photon i stretched out into some thin "string like thing or filament", rather than just a point, and the "front" of one particle can interfere with the "tail" of the other up until the distance is to large and they can no longer interfere. If I'm correct in my thinking, this is due to the uncertainty of location of the particle/wave, and it depends on wavelength and maybe some other things.

This is probably a horrible description, you might want to google this, but photons aren't exactly just little balls as we know. I might assume photons aren't the only particles that behave this way. Photons don't aren't electrically charged, or have mass and they are bosons being the carriers of the electromagnetic force. Fermions would interact with each other in ways photons wouldn't (via electric charge, or the strong and weak forces depending on the particles).

I'm imagining a double slit type experiment with higgs bosons right now ... have no clue if that's even possible or what you might expect to happen.

 

https://www.rp-photonics.com/spotlight_2008_05_05.html

This is what I found, but it's from 2005.

Anyway, to say that the future doesn't exist is to say we all share the same now, but we know that now for some can be the past and the future for others. If there is only one now, and traveling at the speed of light, I exist in a now that only occupies a slight duration of time in comparison to a very long future for others, does this mean that there is something strange about the "now" or does it mean that the future already exists?

http://news.wustl.edu/news/Pages/future-affects-past-quantum-state.aspx

I also found this, which says the future affects the past.

 

the thing is, we don't all share the "same now". We aren't seperated by that much, but some of us are living in a slightly different time (even if only nanoseconds or microseconds its still relevant)... this depends on velocity and gravity (relativity), this means that flying on an airplane (high altitude and high speed) affects you're "now" relative to others when you return.

If longer distances were involved, say stellar distances and stuff like that, and large bodies with lots of gravity (close proximity to large stars, neutron stars or black holes) you're not gonna be able to make that trip and come back to what you knew. Anyone that's seen interstellar will know what i'm talking about here.

relativity, we all have our own reference frames that are unique to us.

 

Yes I realized my mistake after I wrote that. It's a very confusing thing. We don't share the same now, but there is one same future. Sort of.

But then again, how do we know we don't share the same now and now isn't just really weird? We're all existing in the now. My now may be your future or past, but both are still always "now". How can "now" be two different times and both be now? How do we say that one isn't the real now and one isn't the future? There is really no standard for "now", so everything is just the future and the past. Maybe now doesn't even exist at all. Only the future and the past exist and the present is just an illusion.

But anyway, my point is that the future and the past may already exist. And if they do what does this say about the role of the conscious observer, who captures information as meaningful facts? Does, perhaps the conscious observer give reality a "realness" it doesn't otherwise have? How is the physicality of this realness measured?

 

Ok---I haven't participated in this thread---I can't be in all of them-----but I thought I would share something I wrote not long ago. This is the first portion of this, which gets into my own philosophy of Archephenomenalism. The rest of it gets into Hegel and other things, but this part especially is pertinent to this thread----sorry if it is a little long winded (p.s. It doesn't start out the way you would expect it to---but just go with it):


[SIZE=medium]A bitter cold and menacing wind blew off the white caps that topped the waves in the darkness of the North Sea as I stood that night on the pier holding her tightly close to me. I could feel her voluptuous yet slender body through her long jacket, and still tasted her lipstick on my lips from the long kiss we had just shared. She had tears in her eyes and held me just as close. She knew that I had been hiding something the past few days, and I knew she knew. It was clear in the way she always looked at me. And the way she had continuously quizzed me all day “Were you the one that committed my beloved, but exceedingly eccentric, father to the asylum? Was it you that had emptied my bank account of my entire inheritance last Monday? Are you the one that ran over my loving companion for all these years---my cat---with the mower, and then hid her body in the well, tainting our drinking water? Could it have been you that got the maids pregnant?"[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“No. No. No. No.” I insisted, “…it was none of these things.” Though in truth I had secretly committed each of these deeds, but the real secret was much more serious than that.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“Will I see you again?” She tearfully said, staring deeply into my eyes.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]“I hope so.” I gave her another passionate French kiss. “I can’t promise...”[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The icy cold wind seemed to grow all that more icy. I knew I had to come clean with her. There may never be another chance, and the guilt would eat at me for the rest of my life. If only I had told her earlier, as we had spent our last hours together making love, and before I had secretly hidden her silverware and jewelry in my suitcase. It would have been so much easier then, when I was holding her warm body next to mine, rather than here on this god-forsaken pier.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]She looked deeply into my eyes—those beautiful brown eyes. I couldn’t hurt her any longer. I knew she was dying to know what I would not tell her. I took a deep breath.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“I love you.” I said, and looked away into the stormy darkness of the North Sea.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“Yes…?” She knew I was going to come clean. She could read me like a book. Well, not always, like when I turned her brother into the police, she never knew it was me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]But I had to come clean. “I… I don’t buy into the argument that a particle is simultaneously a wave and a particle.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“No!” She cried. “No, you’re just saying that!”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]“I’m sorry, it’s true—it just doesn’t make sense to me.” [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Well, maybe that’s a little too dramatic, and probably never happened. But it is true that I disagree with scientists when they try to tell me that, from our human perspective, a particle exists as both a wave and a particle. I would argue that from our existential experience of the physical world, a particle is always a particle. This may seem very contrary to what science tells us, but if I am right, it is a very key point to the nature of reality as we see and experience it. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Granted, there is a wave, but it is a part of reality we can never directly experience. The problem of wave-particle duality is that in the quantum world we cannot measure, or observe, both momentum and position at the same time. We can only measure one or the other. Therefore, we seem to experience quanta through the phenomena of both wave and particle properties, for example, light moving unmeasured through a double slit experiment moves as a wave form, yet that same light, if striking a photoelectric cell, will cause the atoms within that cell to release electrons, as if it was a physical particle striking an atom. Because there is no fundamental difference between the light striking a solar cell and one moving through the double slit experiment (both things could happen with sun light for example) then scientists have concluded that they simultaneously exhibit both properties.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What scientists are failing to realize is that, just like absolutely everything else that makes up our reality, what we are actually observing is the phenomena; a phenomena that is dependent upon its existence within the physical present moment of now.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In order to understand this in terms of my own philosophy, Archephenomenalism, we need to consider what science means by a wave and a particle. But before that, let me explain how I define physical existence: simply put, it is all that is within the present moment of now. The only thing we can truly know to physically exist is the present moment. Neither the future nor the past has any existence that we can experience at a physical level. We cannot look through a telescope and see the past, for example. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I can see the immediate reaction to this as some of you more science minded folk will respond, ‘what do you mean you cannot see the past? If you were to look through a telescope at a star 4 Million Light Years away, you would be looking 4 Million years into the past!’ [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The problem is that you are seeing that light in the present. You are not literally seeing the past, rather you are seeing in the present the light of something as it was 4 Million years ago. All physical reality is only experienced in the present. We know that this light was travelling across space for 4 Million years, but until that specific moment when it was observed, there was no way to detect it, measure it, or perceive it in any other way. We could not, for example, use a detector that sends a signal out into space to detect a specific photon approaching us as it still exists somewhere out there in space. To do so would require a signal that would go to and from that photon faster than the speed of light. But this would mean that it would have to move faster than time, meaning that I could very well receive the data regarding the light, even before I measured it. In other words, from our perspective, that approaching photon of light does not exist until that moment when it is seen. This light had no physical existence in our reality until the exact moment it was perceived. To be exact, because light moves at the speed of time (or time moves at the speed of light), that light was always in our future, until that exact moment of now that it is to be perceived—and only the present now has physical existence.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In fact, from the perspective of that ray of light, none of this existed, not you, not space, not the star, not even the big bang that gave birth to it all; for all of space-time, from the beginning of time till the end of time, at the speed of light, is nothing more than an infinitely small flash. From the perspective of light our physical dimensions do not even exist. Time does not exist. And yet, ‘our’ perspective of time, existing as we do at slower than the speed of light, happens at the speed of light, for that is our experience of space-time—the ground of physical existence. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This space-time, or as we understand it, the three physical dimensions, exist at that infinitely small moment where the fourth dimension manifests in a physical sense—the moment of Now. It is at this point of Now that concrete material reality has being. It is the point of inertia when force equals mass times acceleration, as Newton determined. That light in our example travelling across space for 4 million years, or even the light traveling for 8 minutes from our sun, or for that matter, the light that makes its way for an imperceptibly brief moment between my computer screen and my eyes, does not exist in this moment of now, and if this moment of now is the only point where existence is physical, then all that light is non-physical until that point of Now where it manifests in the physical sense. According to Archephenomenalism, it exists, along with everything else, in the non-physical fourth dimension. The Now, that infinitely thin peek into the fourth dimension, is the point where everything that is going to manifest in a physical sense does so.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It should be obvious then that a wave is a nonphysical thing of the fourth dimension. A wave does not occupy a single point of space-time, as does a particle. It doesn’t have a single position. Instead it stretches through both time and space. As long as a wave moves through space, it has no beginning and no end. Light for example, exists simultaneously at each and every point clear across that wave. As it turns out, it is not only light energy that acts as a wave, but also atomic particles, and atoms, and even molecules. We might not think of an electron, for example, orbiting an atomic nucleus as a wave, but that is because we are considering it from the perspective of a single moment of time—as if the atom were standing still with the electron temporarily suspended at a specific point in its orbit around the nucleus. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Science demonstrates that reality is far more strange than the snapshot perception we have of it. If the electron is a wave, and it exists all across that wave simultaneously, then we can also see that it simultaneously exists at every possible position around that atomic nucleus, as if it is a field rather than a particle. In fact, Quantum Mechanics shows us that it exists not only around that nucleus, but simultaneously at every near infinite possible position or point of existence across the universe. How much it exists at any one of those near infinite positions, is a matter of probability, and, for example, the probability at just about any position on the opposite side of the universe is extremely small, (it is nonetheless greater than zero). On the other hand, assuming this atom is located on the earth, the probability that the electron is positioned somewhere on or within the moon is even greater than on the other side of the universe. It has the greatest probability that it is positioned somewhere around that atom, where we expect it to be—and yet it is positioned simultaneously in any and all of these places. In quantum mechanics we say that it has a superposition. We also say that it exists as a probability wave. It exists everywhere and is in a state of momentum, and therefore we cannot observe a position. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This sounds very strange from a Newtonian perspective, and therefore we determine that the quantum world is a whole different physical world than that of the physical world we experience, which follows the rules of Newtonian physics. In our world, everything appears to have a single position in space-time. My computer before me, the desk it sits on, the chair and book shelves, the walls, the trees and streets outside, the sun, the moon, and stars in the heavens, they all have their fixed positions—right where they should be. The strange reality of super-positioned probability waves has no place in my Newtonian world. So we write it off as if it can only be a reality at an incredibly microscopic level—an atomic level to be exact. We push it to a point where we assume reality can remain physical and still be different from the one we understand. But even then, as long as we hold this strange aspect of quantum mechanics as part of the physical world, we still have a hard time reconciling it with not only Newtonian Physics, but also Einstein’s theories of Relativity. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]However, from an Archephenomenalist standpoint, the reality of super-positioned probability waves is not a reality of the three physical dimensions, but one of the timeless fourth dimension. If light energy exists as a nonphysical thing super-positioned across a wave that stretches simultaneously across all time, and that its only physical manifestation is a point of now wherein it is perceived as a physical thing with a physical position----a photon—then it stands to reason that a super-positioned probability wave must exist within the fourth dimension, except during that point of time where it has a single physical position in space-time. This is true not only for electrons and photons, but every other quantum in the universe. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This point of physical manifestation happens with a probability wave collapse, when the whole super-position collapses down to a single point. All of its simultaneous (and probable) positions from clear across the universe, and from the past and the future, all collapse down to one single position in space and time. According to Archephenomenalism, this only happens in the present. It is only at this point that an actual particle exists. A particle, whether a photon, electron, proton, neutron, or even a gluon or muon or any other subatomic particle, has a position—a single point in space-time. A particle is therefore a physical thing. Being that it is situated at a specific point in space-time, we can conclude that it has that elusive and mysterious aspect of matter (and one of the definitions of mass), inertia.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In this way, we have defined the wave as a non-physical existent of the 4th[/SIZE] dimension. Though, we are using the term ‘existent’ in a rather loose manner, for lack of a better term, because it is non-physical. On the other hand, we have defined a particle as a physical existent, existing at a specific position in space-time.

[SIZE=medium]It should also be clear from this that if at a particular point of time a quantum is super-positioned through out the universe then at that particular moment it is not also simultaneously positioned at a single point of space-time. This becomes a paradox, because we must also remember that just as it is super-positioned across the universe, it is also super-positioned across time—it is a wave, after all. But the paradox is that in at least one, and probably many, points of time, it is collapsed to a single position. Therefore, in a fourth dimensional and timeless sense it is both a particle and a wave. But this is not true from a physical or existential (or human) perspective. From our perspective, at any given time, it is only a non-physical wave, or a physical particle. In human terms it is one or the other, not both. After all, only the present exists. If it is not a particle in our present, then it is a wave in our past or our future.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If we consider the double slit experiment, where light or other quanta is directed through two slits, we do in fact see that the quanta pass through the slits as either a wave, or when we try to measure how many ‘particles’ are moving through the slits, as particles. They do not go through as both. In other words, in that specific point of the experiment, they have to be one or the other.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But it is not as simple as all that. As I have demonstrated, it is only in the specific moment of Now, or what I refer to as the Quantum Now, that physical reality manifests. I have also demonstrated that from an existential standpoint, a quantum exists only as a wave or a particle at any given moment, not both. I then pointed out that only particles exist in the physical sense, while waves exist in the non-physical fourth dimension. If we put all this together we come to an understanding that the physical point of now only represents all that physically exists. The non-physical is irrelevant, or non-existent, in the physicality of the present. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Consider for a moment that if someone were to shine a very powerful light, sideways across the front of your face, it doesn’t matter how powerful that light is, you would never see the waves of light streaming across right in front of your face. (We are, of course, ignoring the light that hits particles of dust and so forth). It is only if the light was positioned such that part of the beam entered into your eyes that you would be able to see the light. In fact, at any given moment, there is light shooting by in all kinds of directions all around us, even away from us. But we can neither see nor perceive, this light. It is only the light entering into your eyes that you can actually see. Just as the light approaching you from a distant star, 4 Million Light Years away, none of this light exists within your present moment of now, except for that very light which you are seeing right now. Which makes sense because it is a wave—a fourth dimensional nonphysical existent.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]On the other hand, the light waves hitting your eyes, are each hitting atoms within the vision cells of your eyes, and are thereby undergoing a probability wave collapse, from a super-positioned wave of light, to a physical particle—a photon. (In fact, it is not only the photons, but the atoms themselves that undergo a probability wave collapse, as both super-positioned waves (the atom and the light) suddenly have a specific position in space-time.) At the same time there are electrons transferring from atom to atom all along the nerve cells of your eyes, and across neurons within your brain. Each of these, as long as they were induced by vision, represents a photon absorbed from a previous quantum now, and each one representing in the now a probability wave collapse. (While those not induced by vision, still represent probability wave collapses, but are not a part of this example. They might, for example, represent the physical structure of the nerve itself, or represent other perceived phenomena.) The quantum now represents all simultaneous probability wave collapses clear across the universe. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Within that quantum now, clear across the universe, space-time as three-dimensional physical reality manifests for that brief, infinitely small, moment of time. Where it exists, there is the physical. Everywhere else, literally everywhere in between, within, around, and beyond, is nonphysical. Each of these probability wave collapses that we have described are ‘decoherent’ probability wave collapses, meaning that they are the result of quanta interacting with other quanta in such a way that their mutual positions are, for one quantum now, determined.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]In that case then, you may wonder, if only the physical manifests within the physical present, and a wave is a nonphysical, then how are we able to observe a wave in the double slit experiment? The answer is very important to the problem of whether or not a ‘conscious observer’ is involved in the double slit experiment. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]What we are observing is not a wave, but the interference pattern created by the wave when it strikes the screen. This is the result of decoherence: as the waves strike the screen, they are absorbed by the atoms and are therefore undergoing a probability wave collapse (along with the atoms of the screen they are being absorbed into). In other words, as they strike the screen, they manifest as physical photons. Then, in a process we understand as ‘reflection,’ the atoms release another photon (a new probability wave collapse), which then move as waves off the screen, some of which we perceive as photons within our eyes. In other words, we can never perceive the nonphysical waves, but only the phenomena produced in the physical realm by its physical manifestation. More simply put, we are seeing the interference pattern only because the waves became particles. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]This presents a problem for scientists, obsessed with materialist dogma, who try to explain that it is the measurement itself, and not a conscious observer, who causes the probability wave collapse in the double slit experiment when we try to measure individual particles. If their argument were true, then it is simple decoherence that causes this probability wave collapse to occur (i.e. that the wave of light interacts with a wave of energy used to measure the individual particles causing both waves to collapse into particles). The reasoning would follow then that the decoherence happens within the experiment rather than at the end, which is why we see a reflection of the two slits, as if it was particles moving through the slits, rather than the interference pattern of the waves.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]The first problem with this argument is whether or not the light exists as a photon only for the exact moment of the probability wave collapse before returning to a wave, for it is only in that moment that it has a specific position in space-time. The second problem, which will become more problematic as we shall see, is that scientists most likely forget to consider that even the wave undergoes decoherence when it registers the interference pattern on the screen.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]But the more critical problem to this argument is presented by the Wheeler Delayed Observation Experiment. In this version of the Double Slit experiment, it has been shown that it doesn’t matter whether you measure or observe the photons going through the slits before, during, or after they pass through the slits, the results are always the same reflection of the double slits. In fact, quantum physicists agree that if you were to place the double slits near a star many light years away, focusing the light onto a measuring device on earth, that you would still get the same slit pattern on the screen once you measure the particles even though the light passed through the slits many years ago. This creates a paradoxical situation for scientists and many argue that it demonstrates that we are in fact changing the past. The rational is that the light must travel through the slits as particles for them to reflect the double slits, and yet we are changing them to particles after the fact. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]However, if the waves represent a non-physical existent of the timeless 4th[/SIZE] dimension, then time is no longer an issue. Another way to consider this is that what we are changing, from an existential perspective, is a ‘reality’ concerning that light—light that is always approaching us from our future, even if it originates within our past.

[SIZE=medium]But more importantly, if the measurement, or observation, itself represents an occurrence of decoherence, then how can that be any different from the decoherence that occurs as the light hits the screen without any measurement. Since the time and location of the measurement/observation does not matter, then the decoherence encountered at the screen should produce the same results as the decoherence encountered anywhere else in the experiment. But clearly the results show otherwise. If the argument that it is the measurement itself that causes the wave collapse were true, then we should have never encountered the interference pattern, even in the very first double slit experiment roughly several hundred years ago. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]On the other hand, we know that a scientist is not actually observing a photon moving through the slits. In any version of the experiment, what is happening is that an observer, as I just said above, is aware of a physical reality. The difference between measuring a particle and not measuring it in this experiment is that there is a conscious awareness or knowledge, always after the fact (but we could also argue in anticipation of the fact), when we measure individual particles, that there is a particle moving through the slit. It seems very clear that the conscious observer is very important to the probability wave collapse registering the double slits.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]There is a fundamental difference between a probability wave collapse resulting from decoherence, and one involving a conscious awareness of a state of reality. It doesn’t matter whether the awareness happens before or after this state is determined, other than that the perception of the phenomena resulting from this state occurs in the present. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]As if all of this wasn’t strange enough already from a traditional Newtonian perspective, all quanta, from subatomic particles, to atoms and even molecules, all act in the same strange manner as light in this regard. This makes us wonder how material even the physical reality that exists within those infinitely small moments, the quantum now, really is. Archephenomenalism is a Phenomenalist philosophy, therefore material reality is not so relevant to our understanding of reality. Instead it holds that what we are truly experiencing is nothing more than phenomena, mainly through our five senses, sight, sound, smell, touch, and taste. [/SIZE]

 

I never said entanglement wasn't a thing. I explained what it was. Good science makes only falsifiable and logical clams. "Teleportation" and "spooky action" are bad science, unfalsifiable sensationalistic science. There is simply NO WAY TO OBSERVE that both mirrored particles change instantaneously. They are born in the emitting crystal and destroyed in the sensor where the polarity either lines up and signals a hit or does not line up and is absorbed into a filter. Their entire lifespan is a photon particle travelling at lightspeed through fiber-op cables. Light-speed particles do not and can not "change" until they hit atomic fields or come very near some magnetic field or electron fields. This is a property of relativity, which has actually been confirmed countless times. Relativity is GOOD science, is is falsifiable, confirmed and logical. Particles don't rotate at light speed, all energy is used in linear light speed propagation.

The chocolate milk was an ANALOGY to help people understand, which I guess was still over your head.

Someone posted a link about quantum teleportation, that's why I mentioned it. Unsubstantiated woo woo twisted pseudo science is always being used to support delusional fantasy beliefs, is the problem I have with it. Like I said, real science, good science, is always testable (falsifiable), logical and rational. When someone can prove or rationally explain how actual teleportation can be possible, then I will accept it as knowledge. When someone can prove or explain how "spooky change" can be observed in real time when I know observation itself causes change, then I will accept it as knowledge instead of illogical bad science. Until then I can only know what is proven and makes sense. How emotionally evolved is that? I don't know but it's not like I'm on here making dozens of posts a day trying to substantiate an irrational fantasy world. I've got better shit to do, quite frankly.

 

You didn't explain what it is, though. You just gave examples of how people try to confirm teleportation in labs. That isn't entanglement itself. It is not where the idea of entanglement comes from.

And quantum mechanics, the most successful theory of all time, is bad science? Remembering that it requires entanglement...

I think you're taking it waaay too seriously. These are just ideas. People are going to have "delusional fantasy beliefs" whether teleportation exists or not. "Delusional fantasy beliefs" are pretty much a concrete fact of reality. Deal with it?

 

Ok so then why can't you accept the various tests done on quantum non-locality throughout the years? Sounds as if you just have a preference for Relativity as opposed to Quantum Mechanics, and you're mirroring the issue with the 20th century and how we got to where we are now, and why we live in the Materialist shit that we live in.

 

This is my understanding as well and some of the experiments I've seen in fairly recent years suggest something even far more bizarre from our normal perceptions. There is not even a true "now" to ourselves due to lights, sounds and other stimuli requiring different amounts of time to travel to your senses.

Something we can maybe kind of make sense of if you've ever tried to look up at an airplane and notice the sound seems to be traveling the location of where the plane is, or if looking up at a screen at a large concert venue and the guitar players strumming looks slightly off from the sound being produced.

 

But even if there is a slight difference with nanoseconds and whatnot, whenever anything occurs, it's still going to happen in the Now. When else could it be?

The different stimuli may take different amounts of time, but this traveling of time is happening in a space of Now.

 

With the light and sound example, it would be in the past (even if it's nanoseconds) because the interactive process occurs prior to our conscious mind registering what the sensation is.

This is probably better understood on a larger scale with cosmology, that like the stars you see in the sky for instance are all as they were in the past because the light takes a certain amount of time to reach us, hence the whole notion of Light-Years.

 

I too believe that there is only one present now---the problem is that it is experienced locally----so yes, we each experience our own subjective now. The fact that it takes different times for different phenomena to reach us, is part of what gives our perception of reality a 3-D effect.

The fact that relative speed changes our experience of time does not actually mean that we are experiencing a different time, rather we are simply bending space-time so the relative size of the present moment is longer or shorter to that of another individual. The same thing happens based on the relative difference in local gravity.

Time happens, based on the Special Theory of Relativity, at the speed of light.

Time across vast distances of space also does not change---everywhere it is the same now. When we say that if someone were approaching us on the opposite side of the universe, that there now reflects our future, or if they were moving away from us, there now reflects our past, does not happen in reality----it is only a mathematical perception of geodesic space over vast differences. In reality, everyone still has the same now, because it is perceived locally, and because the speed of light (speed of time) is a universal constant.

The fact that it seems to change across vast differences from one side of the universe to another is also irrelevant because we cannot perceive that present------whether we are moving frontwards or backwards, we are still perceiving the same light that is so many light years away. The speed of light is the same no matter how fast you move and whether you move towards or away from the light-----that is the whole fundamental point of the theories of relativity.

 

Deportation is certainly fantasy. Will we ever achieve it? I don't know, however I doubt it.

On the other hand, entanglement is a real thing, and the fact that it has been demonstrated illustrates just how good the math is behind the theory. The problem with the 'interaction with the sensor' theory is that entangled particles have opposite spins, therefore when one particle changes spin, so does the other one, only in opposite directions. If the sensor was changing the spin, then why is the direction so specific? Most popular literature does not go into the fact that the spin is opposite on entangled particles---this is just an added detail they don't bother to include.

In post 567 (sorry it is so long) I pointed out the problem of blaming the probability wave collapse on decoherence and the sensors. BTW: A lot of people think that the "measurement problem" is the sensors changing the waves to particles. But that is not the case---the measurement problem is the fact that the waves move like particles when measured. By itself it doesn't say or imply anything about the sensors interacting with the wave.

P.S. In my philosophy, I explain that particle entanglement happens at a fourth dimensional level, which is why it seems that information is passed at faster than light speed. Everyting is zero-time within the fourth dimension, so time (i.e. speed) is not an issue. We only experience time because we exist in the physical world that is necessarily slower than the speed of light. Entanglement also provides evidence that the there is only one 'now.'

 

Doesn't this mean that the past exists in the Now, if you're seeing stars from the past in the Now?

 

I can understand what you're saying if the terms are used in a very loose and fluffy manner, but if we are to say look at some stars in the Andromeda Galaxy, what we see is different than presumably the stars in their current state . This is fascinating to me because there are potentially some stars that we look up to that have already gone to transformational states such as Red Giant, Supernova, Black Hole, and pulsars and we are unaware of it.

So it makes no sense to talk about the "now" of how we perceive these object as we are essentially getting cosmic light "sheddings."

 

Yeah, I would agree that it's fascinating. Overall still feel that its current state and our current state of perception of it are still one equivalent now. We wouldn't be able to know its current state without our current state of observation.

It's pretty crazy, the star thing, because you're essentially time traveling every time you look up at the stars.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AE8MaQJkRcg

 

I would argue that we are still in the present seeing light as if it reflected the past. It is reaching us in the present, and it is, to the best of our knowledge seeing the past----that star as it was so many light years ago. But comnsider this:

Let's say you see a flash of lightning, and 10 seconds later you hear the thunder. Does this mean that you are hearing 10 seconds ago?

No it doesn't because the texture of the sound has changed somewhat, influenced by the environment. You are hearing thunder in the present from a source that was 10 seconds away at the speed of sound. You know it was 10 seconds ago because you saw the flash. You are not hearing the sound 10 seconds ago, you are hearing that sound as it is now.

Granted, light is the speed of time. But again, that light could have been warped by dark matter deep in space. You are seeing its present representation of four years ago. By the same token you are looking light in the present whr acyou, but of something as if it was the past----however that light could have been originally a bit different, it was just beny by thr darkmatter on between.